Chinatown in the 21st Century – Preparing for Mainstream: Hopes and Survival of Chinatown Residents

Thomas Tam: I want to thank David Chen and Steven Wong for taking time out of their very busy schedule to support this forum, so that we can educate students who are interested in Asian American community, especially in Chinatown. Would any of you like to make a statement first?

David Chen: Well, just a short comment, I guess. It’s a wonderful opportunity for us to have this dialogue. We know everything is changing, but we seldom have time to take a few steps back and look at the whole thing. I really see this as a good series that you’re organizing so we can have this opportunity, through the media, to get more attention to the issues that we need to look at in the long term.

Thomas Tam: Thank you

Steven Wong: I totally agree with Mr. Chen’s statement. We have to use history as a mirror to tell us what’s happened in the past, what we should be doing nowadays and how to avoid or prevent problems. We have to work for the benefit and unity of our community. That’s the reason why I’m here today. Unfortunately, I’m not prepared.

Thomas Tam: I will be asking both of you questions and we can just speak from the heart. That’s fine with us. Making a living is really one of the main reasons that most Chinese immigrants come to this country. We’ve been here for quite a few years. Since 1965 when the immigration gate has opened, many more Chinese are here. Can either one of you comment on the situation for Chinatown residents? How are they doing? Are they doing better than before? What kind of problems are they facing?

Steven Wong: The Chinese community residents are facing the same problem a hundred years ago. We’re having a problem from the outside community; the Whites, Hispanics, and Blacks, look at Chinatown as an isolated area located in the soil of America. In other words, Chinese people who were born and raised in Chinatown, in America, are not recognized as Americans. Another problem we’re facing is that the old migrants, what we call traditional community leaders, have a tendency to isolate the new community members, who will not let them get involved because they want to control. So, we have enemies from within.

Now, the Chinese community is facing tremendous hardship after 9/11. Chinatown, probably the closest ethnic community from Ground Zero, did not receive enough attention from the mainstream media. Mainstream reporters will not come down to activities that we conducted in Chinatown, like candlelight vigil to show support to the survivors. Within the Chinese community, we have the older community leaders who say, “We are the sole party that attention should be paid, from the U.S. government all the way down to city council members.” After 9/11, Chinatown’s economy was hurt badly. Now we have these real estate developers buying factory buildings left and right, changing them into condos. They forget about the welfare of the low-income people in Chinatown. So, people are hurting.

Thomas Tam: So you’re saying that the biggest problem in Chinatown facing new immigrants, is that they’re being excluded from the traditional community leadership structure, and that the focus is on the development of real estate rather than the issues that new immigrants are faced with.

Steven Wong: Basically, new immigrants are not supposed to have any right to make any statement. They are not supposed to be able to go to City Hall on their own without the traditional community’s approval. I would probably put it this way; the older community leaders invented the new Chinese Exclusion Act within Chinatown. The developers, most of them are Chinese, what I would call them bloodsuckers, are purposefully destroying Chinatown to fill up their wallets. They forget about the basic rights of the people in Chinatown and that the common workers need to live. They just buy up the buildings, convert them into condos, and boost up the price that people in Chinatown cannot afford. A lot of new female migrants, who were smuggled into America, have to pay off their smuggling debts. Many of them have to work in massage parlors. People in Chinatown tell me not to say it because it brings disgrace; but face the facts, they are doing it. We’re not trying to lie to the mainstream, or the so-called mainstream, okay?

Thomas Tam: David, do you want to comment on this?

David Chen: You originally asked for new immigrants coming here, is it easier or harder? It’s more complex because the old issues don’t go away and the new issues keep piling up. Transportation, job, housing, sanitation, and education; problems that did not to away.

Then you have this new stuff, 9/11. All these things piled up. For the average individual, whether you’re immigrant or not, it’s pretty tough to begin with. For the immigrant, the problem is always their lack of information. They just don’t know how to navigate the system. Chinatown itself is changing. Chinatown is no longer the Chinatown with one ethnic group. All the other issues are making it more complicated.

Steven had mentioned that there are rich Chinese who don’t care about helping Chinese; they just care about making money. That is very true. They know how the Chinese poor can be vulnerable. It’s no longer outside. It’s really from within. They know how to take advantage of the situation. I think that’s the hard part.

CPC is 40 years old now. When the first new immigrants came, we asked them to apply for benefits because they’re entitled to them. They worked for it; they paid their taxes and they should get it; but there were a lot of denial. They don’t want to get it because of shame and all these things. I remember; I used to say that all the time.

Then all of a sudden, we’re faced with immigrants who, before getting off the plane, are already looking at which benefit entitlement they should go after. It’s true; the whole value system has changed. It’s not only the United States or Chinatown; the world is changing. They now came with a different type of expectation. Social service staffs are now challenged by community residents who say, “You are funded by the government to help us, right? Your job depended on it, right? I need help. So why are you giving me all this trouble, going through all these forms, getting all these barriers? I thought you are supposed to help me, why are you giving me all this trouble?” The system has not gone the way they expected. We just have to work through the bureaucracy to get them to understand.

That’s the hardest part from the individual standpoint. They don’t know enough. There are plenty of misunderstandings. They heard that America is supposed to be a better place. Then, they find out that it’s not always better; it depends on the network and resources you have. This is one of the most challenging problems faced by immigrants.

Thomas Tam: What are the most important issues, in terms of their needs? Is it language? Is it job training? What are their modes of survival? What can social agencies do for them?

Steven Wong: Well, I used to believe that all men are created equal in this country. After years of staying in America, I have learned the hard way that all men or women are not created equal in this country. Number one, you have the white man; you have the black man, you have the Hispanic; and you have the Chinese. Chinese who were born in this country, Chinese who have a green card, and Chinese who doesn’t have a green card, they don’t share the same rights. A lot of people forgot that the undocumented residents in Chinatown are also taxpayers. When we eat, we have to pay tax. When we buy clothes, we have to pay tax. In terms of medical coverage, not just because of equal rights, but from a public health angle, we should not ignore free medication or insurance for the individual who do not have legal immigrant status. What if he or she got sick and passed it onto some U.S. citizen, somebody who has a green card, a member of the older generation, or an older community leader who has control in the so-called mainstream? The point I am trying to emphasize is to give them back their rights, so we can share it with them. Eventually, we’re going to be benefited, not jeopardized.

Thomas Tam: In your estimate, what percentage of the population in Chinatown is, say, “illegal”?

Steven Wong: Well, I won’t use the term “illegal”. They are “undocumented”. I wrote a book called “From Mayflower to Golden Venture” in which I said that nobody is legal in this country except American Indians. We have a very high percentage in Chinatown, probably over 60% of undocumented Chinese. They’re much exploited.

Betty Lee Sung: I would like to ask a question of Steven. What is the relationship between the Fujianese and the Cantonese, is it cordial or is it combative? The other question is, does the Fujian community have social service organizations like David Chen’s to help these people that you say are in want?

Steven Wong: To answer your second question, we are experimenting with different social services for the community, whether they are from Fujian, or Canton, or Shanghai. My group has a care center. We let the community use our space, and we provide free health services. My door is always open. We allow anybody who needs help to come in.

The only difference is that my group does not apply for government funding, because I don’t want to be controlled by any government, okay? I just want to do it, okay? Back to your first question. If we look at Chinese history, everybody came from the Northern part near where the Yellow River is. It is stupid to say, “Since our ancestors traveled from North to South and stayed in Shanghai, then we’re supposed to be better than the Cantonese,” or for the Cantonese to say that they’re better than the Fujianese.

I have been in America for some 32 years. I have never seen any New Yorker saying that he is better than people from California, or people from New Jersey saying that they are better than New Yorkers. That’s the problem we have. That’s the reason why I said we have the enemy from within. Did I answer your question?

Betty Lee Sung: Not exactly. I mean, how are the relationships between the two groups? Since you’re newcomers, have you blended in with the regular, old-time Chinese residents?

Steven Wong: I would say that I’m the black sheep in the community, because I do not want to consider that I’m an old-timer.

In Chinatown, we’re all part of the community. People would say, “Okay, you’re supporting the People’s Republic of China, but I’m supporting Taiwan.” So my question is “What if a community leader in Chinatown got run over by a car? Should we dial 911, provide the most help to this individual? Or should we ask their political position on China, and then make the decision?”

That’s why I call myself a black sheep in Chinatown. For many years, I have been teaching them, “Forget about the political burden from China. Pay more attention to American politics. Show them that we care.”

David Chen: I have no identity with what’s going on in Taiwan or with the election that is goes on there. Those names mean nothing to me. In that sense, heritage is different from politics.

Politics really is local. It affects you and your pocketbook. It also affects how you get involved. Twenty years ago when China’s door was not open, most people only recognized the Taiwan flag to be the Chinese flag.

Immigrants that came in since the ‘80s grew up in China and never sang the Nationalist anthem before. Naturally, they would identify with China and not Taiwan. It’s a question of what they are exposed to. A lot of times, since they have no information, they can only hold on to what they are familiar with; and what they’re familiar with are the old politics.

A lot of it translates to information deficit. Steven articulated very well on the rights part, but sometimes immigrants have to understand the obligation part as well. The obligation part means that they have to be open-minded in dealing with new issues that comes up, rather than staying with old issues that they’re familiar with. There’s a risk and there’s a challenge. They have to realize that coming to the United States is a challenge to begin with. New immigrants usually lack confidence in understanding the system, so they rely on what they are familiar with; that’s the biggest obstacle sometimes.

Thomas Tam: Recently, I read in the newspaper that the Fujianese community was able to gather more than 10,000 signatures on some immigration issues. That clearly showed tremendous amount of political strength, and certified the arrival of the Fujianese community in New York City. Do you see the new-comers and the old-timers working together to resolve local problems?

Steven Wong: For many years, I’ve been trying to do it case by case, instead of putting too much hope about the unity within Chinatown. Now, the new-timers and the old-timers have a gap. The old-timers established a glass ceiling for the new-timers, even for me. In the mid-90s, the Cantonese community discovered that my parents were from Fujian province. Even though I was born in Hong Kong and supposed to be Cantonese, all of a sudden they isolated me. When we tried to put up a statue in Chinatown, people said, “Only the Cantonese can to do it. If we’re not leading the effort, you’re not doing it.” I said, “No, this is America.” So we went ahead and did it.

After I put up the statue in Chinatown, the old-timers told City Hall that Commissioner Lin Zhe Xu was not a U.S. citizen, so his statue could not be erected in Chinatown. They said that the historical background of Commissioner Lin, inscribed on the panel, might trigger conflagration between Great Britain and America. They also did not agree to supporter names on the base of the statue. I have said that the statue is a saying no to drugs’ campaign. They argued that supporters who put their names on the panel would put their lives in danger. All of a sudden, when somebody pulled a string in City Hall, the history of Commissioner Lin was gone.

I have been here thirty some years. I’m still facing problems from Chinese in the community with political connection. We’re destroying each other. You know why we have Chatham Square in Chinatown? There was this guy called Chatham, who was a hero from the independence war. If we put his name there, that probably should upset the British more than putting up the statue of Commissioner Lin.

Thomas Tam: The statue of Commissioner Lin Zhe Xu, who comes from Fujian, certainly is a recognition of the Fujianese community in New York, especially along the East Broadway area. Thanks to your leadership, that was done.

Steven Wong: Although Commissioner Lin was born and raised in Fujian, we cannot disregard the fact that he dared say no to drugs. Whether people are from Canton, Shanghai or Beijing, they should be proud of Commissioner Lin. I was stupid enough to put up his background; all of a sudden, I became the enemy of the traditional community leaders in Chinatown. This is the new version, or episode two of the Chinese Exclusion Act, established by the Chinese.

Thomas Tam: Let me take a different direction. After 9/11, Chinatown was hurt very badly. Now there’s a rebuilding effort of New York City. Do you consider that to be an opportunity for the rebuilding of a new Chinatown?

David Chen: United we stand. When you’re under attack, you see just the enemy outside, you don’t see the enemy inside. In Chinatown, there is still competition for money, competition for resources, and competition due to clashing egos. For example, when you mention Lin Zhe Xu, I didn’t even know he was from Fuzhou. I only know that he was against the opium war. So in that sense, it’s a wonderful thing.

The real issue was the symbolism; what it means for young people. There are a lot of divisive issues, but 9/11 made people see that we’re all in bad shape, and we are all in the same boat. As we went through the Chinatown rebuilding process, nobody was seeing any money. All we did was advocate, making sure somebody up at LMDCC hears what we have to say.

The contradictions within the community didn’t go away because of 9/11; it was only sidetracked. Eventually, you still have to rebuild. I believe collaboration is the successful vision for Chinatown, because if we don’t collaborate, if we don’t form partnerships, a lot of opportunities will pass by us.

I remember the court compound that was built in Chinatown. Why couldn’t they hire more Chinese? Why couldn’t they have more Chinese contractors? As it turned out, the Chinese contractors didn’t have bonding qualifications. They just didn’t have enough experience to undertake those huge contracts. They couldn’t compete with the big companies. So even though it was open competition, you got ruled out every time. It’s not affirmative action. You never get off the ground. Until we can unite and understand that part, LMDC projects still won’t come to the small mom and pop operations.

Every time when we identified a problem and talked to the authority, they would say: “But have you talked to so-and-so yet? well, let me wait until you guys figure it out.” That is like wanting us to do a complete sample of opinions. That was the situation. Again and again, it happened to us. Mainstream is not always against us, but it looks at us and says: “This is America. It’s a free competition model. If you can’t come up cheaper, if you can’t come up better, and if you need me to explain and explain to get it done, it takes too much time. I’ll go to the one that does not need an explanation.”

All the money from 9/11 doesn’t come to community agency directly; it has to go through some intermediary like the Red Cross. We do get calls from all these groups, “What do you guys do?” I was helping them, until I found out that the guy was writing a proposal. He had no information and he wanted to milk me for the information. He got the money. After he got the money, he was up-town and opened an office. It doesn’t make sense. The funders somehow felt that the community organization lacked the capacity to undertake the project. From 9/11, I realize that the community has to develop in a different mode. We have to compete in the mainstream in that sense, so we don’t have to get handouts at the end of the day. It’s so obvious that we know more and they should come to us, but that’s a long way to go.

Thomas Tam: How do you see the possibility of community agencies working together with research groups within the university to create a metastructure that can facilitate the rebuilding effort?

David Chen: I have to share a little of my own history. Years ago, when I was doing community service on a volunteer basis, I disdained studies. Actually, I got recruited into social work through a professor doing a comparative study of three Chinatowns: Boston, Chicago and San Francisco. $20 per interview. It was easy money, except that I had a hard time: Nobody is there to answer my interview because they all worked. I found out that it would take about five or six hours to finish one interview. When the result was finally published, I said, “What’s new? We knew it all along. Does it take all these efforts to come up with the conclusion?” It was only years later that I started to appreciate that. As a social service provider, you can talk till your mouth is dry, if it is not documented, nobody listens to you.

If you have a university sanctioned study, with a lot of footnotes, that would be different. But where did that come from? It came from us. Theory comes from practice, but the theories have to be there, otherwise they think it’s fly by night, and you don’t get their attention. Government organizations do have the data, but they are not organized in a way that satisfies the decision maker. Community folks doing frontline work are not good at that. I can see that increasingly; we need to work that out. Even government fundings now are talking about evaluation model and replicability. Whatever you do, it has to be replicable and leveraged. If I give you a dollar, can you bring in your own dollar?” The capacity issue is increasingly important even among foundations. You can’t say, “I’m poor, give me some money.” You need to document it. This is how university research supports what we know all along. All of a sudden our weakness can now be leveraged. I think that community and university collaboration will be more and more important as we go forward.

Betty Lee Sung: Just tell us how we can go about doing that. I agree with you that there should be collaboration. As a research institute, we should be in the business of providing documentation, but how can we link up with the social service agencies?

David Chen: I know the research of social services in the West Coast is much more developed than here, because they have more institutional support for that kind of research. New York has the number, but doesn’t have the power to get that kind of attention for money.

New York is following the national trend. You need to have all these analyses. No longer is funding need-based; it is now knowledge-based. Now the 2000 census came out. It’s a goldmine. I was looking through the questions that you gave me. Wow, there are so many unanswered questions. I think you can assign the whole CUNY sociology department to study Chinatown; there’s enough to go for many PhDs.

Will they come? You’ve got to have a research grant. If you don’t have grant, you don’t get assigned. If you don’t have professors that would lead that particular research, it won’t work out.

We have been providing social services all these years. It doesn’t mean we know anything. We’ve just been doing them. Unless we have an evaluation model set up from the beginning, as part of monitoring within a planning context, we will be less open-minded for changing and to improve efficiency of projects. This is true for senior citizens, child care and affordable housing.

Chinese American Planning Council serves Chinese and other Asians. To document that information, however, is beyond our capacity. We can only do a roster showing the times they come in and go out. It will take a whole different structure to do a complete service analysis. I think we’ll need to collaborate on that one.

Thomas Tam: David is right about the need for documentation. The need for data gathering and analysis is clearly important. Poor people suffer from just about everything. But there are certain people who suffer much more from one problem than another. If you ask for help in that particular problem in comparison to another group, you stand a much better chance getting assistance. All these come from data analysis. I do see a great future for collaboration between research institutes and social agencies.

We talk about trying to work together to develop not only Chinatown but the whole Lower East Side. You mentioned that 40% of the people that live in Soho, Chinatown are non-Chinese. What about the relationship of Chinatown residents with different groups?

Steven Wong: The Chinese hardly say good morning to their neighbors. Some Chinese will only say hello to other Chinese and never talk to the non-Chinese. We isolate the non-Chinese and we isolate ourselves. We just make believe that they are not here. If we see African Americans living in Chinatown, we probably stay away from them and keep an eye on our wallet; we probably look at them and think that they may be muggers. As we’re being discriminated, we discriminate against other people.

Thomas Tam: Can anything be done about this?

Steven Wong: Well, by working together. In our community, we have all the problems, and we need a united front. In our efforts to reconstruct Chinatown after 9/11, instead of only constructing Mott Street or the Cantonese area, and forget about East Broadway’s Fujianese area, we should reconstruct the entire Chinatown. Mr. Chen said that some 60% or more Chinese and 40% of non-Chinese are part of this community. We should reconstruct every block and every building, instead of just one small portion, making one group look high-class and the other group look like cheap laborers. So my answer is work with Chinatown as a big picture, not just a portion of it.

David Chen: It’s not just the ethnic issue. Deep in it are economics and class issues involved. To resolve that, we’ve got to work together. But working together also means not competing. The community facilitator has to look at issues that stress on the lowest common denominator.

When you look at the school issue, if the principal becomes the problem, believe me, black, white, yellow, brown, everybody will come out very united. If the problem is about white kids beating up Chinese kids, then all of a sudden, they don’t talk to each other. 20 years ago, the case of Vincent Chin brought out a lot of people. They all come out because they identified the issue with their own experience. On a different note, the fight between Taiwan and China is no good. It brings back bad memories. To focus on the positive part, that’s the thing we need to do more.

Steven Wong: What gives anybody the right to say that the Cantonese are better than the Fujianese or the Fujianese is better than the people from Wenzhou? Since we’re in America, whether we are from the old generation or the young generation, supporting the KMT or the People’s Republic of China, we should learn to put the barrier away and work together. If the entire Chinatown sticks together, we can get the most benefits from the government and the politicians who ignored us.

Thomas Tam: With that, I’m going to hold off my questions and open it to the audience.

Betty Lee Sung: I just want David to comment on the employment situation. After 9/11, many people lost their jobs, and many factories are closed down. Have these women found other jobs? What fields have they gone into? And the men, with so many restaurants closed down, where have they gone? What other jobs have they got?

David Chen: We have to look at the job base for men and women in Chinatown because there’s no opportunity elsewhere. Jobs in the restaurants always need people that don’t speak English and willing to work hard. They take over the lowest salaried jobs because they’re easier to pick up and because they don’t have a job skill. Why are Chinese restaurants all across the world? Chinese open up restaurants, because they got food to eat and a floor to sleep on for the whole family. Everybody works there, and everybody can make a living. You don’t make a lot of money, but in time, you can save. It’s a very safe venture where you can depend on yourself.

Female Audience: Where have the women gone?

David Chen: From a community development standpoint, restaurant jobs are really incubators. We want to incubate, so when they speak the language, they can move out. Someone told me that coffee is 60 cents a cup in Chinatown. Well, in uptown they’ve been a dollar for a long time, and Starbucks is charging almost two dollars. Why is Chinatown still 60 cents?

The problem is that they can’t step out of Chinatown. Not all of them are new immigrants. Some have been around for a long time. They get used to Chinatown because they have no access to the outside. With the social support they have, they cling together.

Where are the jobs? The global situation has made the garment industry shift elsewhere. You can’t fight that. Within the garment industry, New York City can still have a niche that can be successful, but then it won’t be the same for Chinatown workers who are language proficiency lacking and not mainstream. So what opportunity do they have? A lot of these people are moving to home care. As a matter of fact, this is an area that CPC has been doing for years. We have a home attendant program, and we train people 55 years and older to work in the home care industry.

Homecare is a growing industry because of demographics. People are getting older, and they can benefit from Medicaid reimbursement. In New York City, ethnic elders are the fastest growing subgroup among Hispanics and Asians. There is a need for homecare workers.

This is a good opportunity to move into that area as an incubator. Not too much upward mobility, however. On the other hand, the potential to work for minority elders is tremendous. There are also jobs with low salaries that the mainstream don’t want to work for.

The pay may not be so good, but there are good health benefits that will help the family overall. There are always people who need that kind of family support. I know the home care program, the home attendant program, and the home nursing program are still demanding more Chinese workers. Is it an area that could be explored? Definitely.

The restaurant workers seem to move around. You have these cheap buses that go from Chinatown to the West. The market is no longer just here. It could be in Ohio or Philadelphia somewhere, because the transportation is relatively easy. In that sense, the role that Chinatown plays is more than for just one city.

Female Audience: I have a question for Mr. Wong. We clearly see the presence of the Fuzhou community on East Broadway. What are the reasons for the influx of Fuzhou-nese as opposed to other Chinese groups in Chinatown?

Steven Wong: Well, I don’t see any difference. New comers need to survive. With all the barriers in Chinatown, they have to work harder. They are under tremendous amounts of pressure. The biggest problem is from the older community. The older generation needs to give us a chance. They need to remember what they faced in the past. Similar to the people from Toishan, who came here a hundred years ago, the Fujianese are being ripped off by the white community. They are being exploited and discriminated against.

I strongly urge the community leaders in Chinatown to learn from history. Anybody who forgets the history is probably a traitor in our community. They sell-out. They forget about the painful experience. On top of that, they try to justify exploiting the newcomers, and hurting the newcomers.

David Chen: This is one interesting note concerning new-comers and old-timers. Almost half of the Chinatown population migrated in the last ten years. Three of five residents in Chinatown arrived in the last five years.

It means that Chinatown has a big changeover; it’s a different wave. Last year, there was a rush on the Abacus Bank. Anybody who lives in America long enough would realize that banks are FDIC insured. They don’t need to rush them. The new comers really are scared. They’re referring to old experience. Where they came from, they didn’t trust anybody. The old timers have two complaints about new comers: One is, “You guys are so ignorant!” The other is, “You don’t trust us.” All it takes is for the old ones to realize that they were there once, exactly like the new comers, but they are too busy and they don’t have time to think about it.

Thomas Tam: We’ve been talking a lot about the struggle and the survival of Chinatown residents, but our series is about Chinatown in the 21st century. It’s actually the third millennium that we are talking about. Can we take a step back from the present day and current issues, and see what kind of future lies in store for Chinatown?

Steven Wong: I’m not being very optimistic because of the current situation. I don’t even dream that all the community leaders can help each other overnight. It’s not going to happen. We’re going to see a lot of newcomers being exploited by the people that were here longer. But I promise I’m going to fight. I will keep raising my voice despite of what happened to me. In Chinatown, I had the windshield of my car destroyed with a rock, in addition to some flat tires. I have been paged with the return number of a funeral home. A lot of threats have been leveled against me, but I’m not going to give up. I’m going to work with every one of you who shares the same thoughts. We’re going to build a united front, and we’re going to make it happen. Somebody has to do it. It might not be pleasant.

David Chen: I can see Chinatown increasingly play a bigger role, less of a residential area, but more of an ethnic enclave. Ethnic enclave is one of…culture, commerce, and education. It’s a comfort zone where Chinese will come to eat, no matter where they live. Sure, a lot of Long Island people stop by Flushing. They don’t go to Chinatown any more because of the transportation convenience issue, but I can see Chinatown playing the role of an ethnic enclave.

On the other hand, the typical 80,000 residents will not change either. I was trying to explain our community-based effort where someone said, “You guys do so much in the community to help people stay in Chinatown. Does that mean that you’re ghettoizing Chinatown, telling them to stay there, rather than helping them move into mainstream?” It was hard to explain until I saw a needlepoint that says “Parenting”. The role of parenting is to give young ones roofs to shelter and wings to fly. When you look at Chinatown in that role, we’re giving roots for the people who are vulnerable, who need that transition period to learn to fly. We want them to fly, like all parents who want their children to be successful.

Chinatown is relatively dirty, because you always have the newcomers’ problems. You’ve got to deal with their baggage, and you can’t drop them. You’ve got to get them to fly, and you hope that they will come back to visit every now and then.

Male Audience: My question is about development. You guys mentioned about new developers in Chinatown buying up real estate and making it into middle-income housing. Can community leaders do something about housing reserve for the poor?

Steven Wong: There are many ways to do it. We can get the community together and protest at City Hall, or we can use the law. When developers want to build in our community, there should be public hearings. A certain percent of lower income should be included, from the equal housing point of view.

We learned that they’re going to build shopping malls on Delancey Street. This means that the small businessmen are going to suffer. A K-Mart can monopolize and drive out a lot of small stores. We need somebody to lead the protest. We need to share the problem; otherwise Chinatown is going to collapse.

David Chen: Yes, we have to organize and protest, but we have to understand that the stacks are against us. We can fight the society based on unique situations, but we have to work with it as it is. Once upon a time, everyone was going to the suburbs; nobody wanted to in live the cities. The buildings in the City became dilapidated, and the minorities moved in because it was cheap.

In the ‘70s, the yuppie generation came with a preference for urban lifestyle. Chinatown became fashionable. This is followed by speculators and developers who go where the money is. The old-timers knew their worth. They sold their building, made a million bucks and they moved elsewhere. Increasingly, people are willing to sell. How do you stop that? It’s very difficult. Lower Manhattan for the longest time could not grow because people want 100% low income housing. Politicians nowadays don’t care about low income residents. They want to bring in home-ownership because homeowners are professionals who make $80,000 or $100,000 a year. They broaden the tax base. They pay higher taxes.

In subsidized housing, senior citizens only pay one third of their retirement income from social security. Market rent could be $2000. They only pay $300 because that’s all they have. The $1700 had to come from the government which wants to get out of that business.

The smart way is to employ cross-subsidies. If the developers want it so much, for every ten buildings they build, can they set aside two for poor people? A compromise must be made to achieve the diversity goal.

This is the American system. The key thing is to have strong advocacy. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. But to get it done, we have to know how to compromise. You can’t get it all at once, but you can get it incrementally.

Female Audience: I agree that we have to compromise because we can’t have 100 percent low income housing for immigrants. Mr. Chen, you’re right; it would mean less tax for the government. If agencies don’t come in and try to revitalize the sweatshops, for example, it will be a very serious situation. Like you said, a lot of families are moving out of Chinatown. Chinatown is dying slowly, though not obviously.

David Chen: That’s why the University can help us in some way. It can help us obtain data and make analysis, examine demographic trends and determine strategic approaches, as well as improving our performance.

Steven Wong: In terms of data, I have to question the accuracy of the census. People just knock on your door with the form. We have new immigrants, sometimes 15 of them, sharing one apartment. A lot of them weren’t included, not to mention those people who are afraid of immigration officials, no matter what you tell them, they just won’t fill out the forms.

Female Audience: It’s a shame that we are our own worst enemy. We lost a chance to get benefits, because we’re afraid of the federal government survey. If we don’t speak up, “I’m here”, then we’re invisible.

David Chen: We used to tell the Census Bureau that Confucius plaza is undercounted. They said they had these men knocking on each door and checking the mail boxes. Unfortunately, it still didn’t come out right. Can they think of water consumption? An average person can only flush so many toilets and take so many showers. If you look at water consumption, it will tell you that it cannot be just two people living in the apartment. Common sense tells you that there are a lot of ways to do it, but they won’t accept our suggestion.

Female Audience: Mr. Chen you’re right, there’s an increase in tax roll, the money is good, and less benefits you’re going to pay out. The thing is, agencies won’t come in and revitalize the sweatshops. This is a very serious situation if it’s not corrected. Because, like you said, a lot of families are moving out of Chinatown; Chinatown is dying very slowly, but not very obviously.

David Chen: This is a point that we mentioned earlier, about how the University can help us in some way. We tend to do black and white approach; but increasingly, we have to cost allocate, we have to break down, and we have to analyze. How do you analyze unless you have the data, right? We always thought Chinatown was 100% Chinese, but then Chinese are moving to Houston Street; there’s no way there are more Chinese there. What is the percentage? Good thing it turns out to be 60%, so you can still have the majority. Same thing with the Chinese population: Chinese used to be 99% of Asians in New York, but no longer. The Chinese are still more than half, but rapidly increasing are the other ones. If we don’t have the data, we have to lump it all together. Lumping it together creates all these misunderstandings, though.

Female Audience: One of the agencies did a survey last year, and the percentage of Chinese came out to be less than 60%. Are the agencies, trying to help Chinatown after the 9/11 incident? They did a survey; the results were very scary. I attended a meeting, it was a not a good feeling.

Steven Wong: Well, I have to say that the census wasn’t conducted scientifically. People just knock on your door with the form. Now, we have new immigrants, sometimes 15 of them sharing one apartment; a lot of them weren’t included, not to mention the people who fear immigration officers: no matter what you tell them, they just won’t fill out the form.

Female Audience: It’s a shame that we are our own worst enemy. We lose our chance at getting benefits, because we’re afraid of the federal government survey. If we don’t speak up, “I’m here”, then we’re invisible.

David Chen: The census bureau did try to outreach in different ways to count the bodies. So we say, “Can you think outside the box?” We used to tell them that Confucius plaza is undercounted. They say, “I have all these men knock on door, check the mail box, and it still doesn’t come out right.” Well, can they think of water consumption? An average person can only flush so many toilets and take so many showers. If you look at the water consumption, it just tells you it cannot be two people living there. But will they accept that as data? Common sense tells you there are a lot of ways to do it, but they won’t accept it.

Thomas Tam: We are going to have a lot of interesting discussion and I really, appreciate the two panelists for sharing their insights with us and taking time out of their very busy schedules. It’s their efforts and the efforts of the audience that make this panel discussion a possibility. We are going to make this into study materials for students who are interested in Chinatown, so they can learn more about it. Without your support and participation, it cannot happen. So I’m very grateful to the panelists and to all of you; please give ourselves a big hand. We can talk; the panelists will be here for a little while, so if you want to talk to the panelists, that’s fine.

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