Conference on South Asians in the U.S. – Session 2

Betty Lee Sung: I have to confess that I just came back from Florida the night before last, and I thought had written out all my notes on my computer and I thought I would print it out on my printer at home, but lo and behold last night the printer wouldn’t work. I unplugged it and nothing would come out. So I’m just talking extemporaneously, and if I forget some of the introductions, please forgive me.

And I think that Professor Tam, or Dr. Tam, our Executive Director, gave me this assignment because I was one of the first ones to start Asian American studies at City College back in 1970. And at that time, there were probably mainly Chinese-Americans around, and I taught the courses in Chinese American experience. And then before long, along came the Koreans and the Vietnamese and the Cambodians, and later on the Indians. And now we have on our panel, we have speakers from India, who will speak about Indian Americans, Pakistani Americans, and Bangladeshi Americans. You can see from this variety that “Asian American” is becoming much more complex. You know, we were very, very surprised, I was just talking with Professor Gordon there just a minute ago from Brooklyn College, he said, he taught courses in Indian history back in Brooklyn College some time ago, and I said, from my own experience I know that when I was teaching at City College we didn’t have Asian studies. We didn’t have Chinese studies either. And that’s when we started the courses. And later on Asian American Studies and Asian Studies became a department.

I was one of the first to teach Asian American studies back in 1970. That was the first course offered east of California on Asian Americans. So you can see how recent we are, even though the Chinese have come as early as 1840 and 1849, and that the Bangladeshis, as the speaker today will say, have come as recently as 1989. So this is going to be a very interesting panel. We will have speakers speaking about Indian Americans, Pakistani Americans, and Bangladeshi Americans. And even students: Professor Min will be talking about the South Asian students at Queens College.

And so today our first speaker is Parmatma Saran, whom you’ve already met. He is Professor at Baruch College, this college here, and he has written many books on Indian Americans. He’s one of the old timers, [inaudible] college for a long time. I don’t have a more extensive biography to talk about him, as you remember I don’t have my notes at all but anyway, a very distinguished scholar in Indian American studies, Professor Saran. Could the members of this panel come to the front here, Professor Min, Mr. [Masser], and Mr. [Lin-Hua], are they here, could you come up and take a seat?

Parmatma Saran: [Transcriptionist’s note: his paper is from an article in the Journal of Ethnic Studies]
Thank you very, very much for a very generous introduction. I am an old timer, as far as this topic is concerned. My first book came out in 1981. I’m not as up-to-date on this matter as my colleagues are. As a matter of fact, when I was organizing this conference, I tried to reach some of them hoping that they would come forward. But for some reason it was not possible to get anyone else, so what I’m going to do is something that I’ve been doing for many many years. I came to this country back in 1967 as a graduate student. Things were so different. I remember the Indian consulate was the only place I could go and have some samosa and chai. Now I jokingly tell my wife, where is the invitation from, if it is an Indian invitation, which invariably it is, I’m not that [inaudible], but if it is an American invitation, if with a steak dinner or a lamb chop, that is more exciting, samosa and [inaudible] are all over now. I have been doing this, looking at this phenomenon since 1970. I have done lots and lots of interviews, used participant observations, things of that sort. I am not [inaudible] the last five, six, seven years. I have not done any systematic studies, but I am pleased to see that Dr. Madhulika Khandelwal, she is the director of the [inaudible] institute at Queens College, has recently published a book.

We have about twenty minutes or so. So under these circumstances what I would like to do usually is read from my script. I am basically going to share a paper titled, “Pains and Pleasures: Consequences of Indian Immigrants in this Country,” which was published in the Journal of Ethnic Studies. It’s of course I am not going to be able to read all of it. So I will try to take out portions of this paper to share with you.

Starting in 1969-70, thousands of Indians came with their families to settle in the United States. This large-scale migration was made possible because of the changes in immigration laws. At the last census of the U.S. approximately one and a half million Asian Indians were living in this country. It is estimated that at the present time two million Indians form communities all over the country. They have made a concentration in New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Los Angeles, Houston and other metropolitan areas. Approximately half a million are living at present in the tri-state area, that is, New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut.

Progressively, Indian enterprises began establishing. The rapidly growing number of Indian restaurants, grocery stores, appliance stores, sari stores, temples, and cultural and social organizations, among other activities, clearly indicate the establishment of a permanent Indian community in and around the New York area, with a concentration in Queens, New York and Edison, New Jersey.

My most recent work focuses on the concentration of the Indian population, particularly in the Queens area.

It must be noted now that because of the nature of immigration laws, those Indians who came to the US were professionals, or at least skilled people. However, it is now changing because of what we call second-wave immigration: people who came through a sponsorship relationship, and things of that sort. Data based on participant observation and interviews reveal that the attitudinal profile of Indian immigrants remains traditional. There has not been a major change in their attitudes since coming to this country. In the area of marriage and family, the traditional attitudes are still dominant. Parents with grown children hope that the children will either go to India for marriage or find suitable Indians to marry in the United States.

It reminds me two years back my daughter got married, and he happens to be of Indian origin like her. But when we started informing friends and family about this, the first question they asked was, “Is he Indian?” And I realized how important it is, and once they found out he was Indian, then I believe there was a sense of comfort. I am not saying that marrying outside is not accepted at all, but generally it is not welcome that much.

The parents’ attitude toward children generally remains traditional and authoritarian, with some change here and there. Because of peer group influence and exposure to school, children demand that they have more freedom and greater equality. This has created some hardship and tension within Indian families.

The religious values and attitudes of Indian families are also not affected because of migration. Interestingly, families tend to engage in more religious activities than they actually did in India.

In the area of economics, traditional Indian ways are also retained. For example, saving is greatly emphasized and the immigrants tend to neither borrow nor use credit as much as their American counterparts.

There is very strong stigma attached to mental illness. Very seldom will an Indian see a psychiatrist, even if advised to do so by a physician. Those few who have seen a psychiatrist, either for themselves or for a relative, requested that it not be discussed in their research for fear of being identified.

Indians have changed their attitudes in matters of physical health. They have become more health conscience since coming to the U.S. Most Indians see doctors for medical check-ups and follow the advice given to them. There is little evidence of use of [inaudible] or homeopathic medicine, [inaudible]. Although basic food habits have not changed, there is greater concern about the nutritional value of the food eaten, and among adults, especially women, a desire to avoid items that are fattening.

The average size of the Indian family is small, slightly smaller than comparable families in India.
It is interesting to note that the structure of assimilation of the India is relatively easy when compared to that of many other immigrant groups, whereas cultural assimilation has been minimal or marginal. A close look at the Indian community’s [inaudible] that there is a strong desire to retain their cultural heritage. The notion of ethnic identity remains as strong, and is perceived as desirable. My predecessors that Indians may be classified into three categories in terms of cultural assimilation into American society. It must be pointed out that there is some of a lacking of traits in these categories. These categories are:

1) A very small proportion who have become completely Americanized, or at least claim to have done so. Their effort to Americans as the reference group for their attitudes and behavior.
2) A reasonably large proportion who carefully maintain their Indian heritage and at the same time accept new values and consider themselves as part of the mainstream of American Life. However, the Indian community remains their reference group.
3) The largest proportion are highly conscious of their Indian heritage, and want to keep it intact. They generally resist new values and live as marginals in American society. This category includes the majority of the most recent immigrants. Their reference group is not only Indian but of a regional base.

In terms of their attitudes, values, and experiences we find some differences. However, we also find certain common traits. For example, while professionally and economically they are satisfied, and they all have close family and friends, there is a sense of loss in being away from India. They all shared an increased sense of Indian identity and wished to return to India for resettlement, fully realizing the latter was only wishful thinking. Even though there have not experienced any serious consequences of migration, it has spawned some sense of emotional deprivation and loneliness for them.

Here I have used some case studies in my paper, which I am going to skip. I am just going to come to the discussion.
We note that, while in general, the [inaudible] of the correspondents was favorable it was accompanied by apprehension, anxiety, and in some cases outright rejection of the new way of life and the new environment. Most of our respondents felt that they were not quite welcome by the local people, and that Americans were not as friendly. AS they interacted with people outside of New York, they came to feel that unfriendliness was characteristic of big cities like New York. Generally, the immigrants had felt a sense of accomplishment upon arrival, coupled with the powerful reaction tot he physical and material environment. However, they also felt that interpersonal relationship with family, as well as with friends, was not as close. The major source of strain and frustration among our respondents was the inability to find a job. “Everyone asks you about American experience. How can you have that if you have just arrived?” complained one of our respondents. The same respondent also reported that, “Once you prove your worth, you are rewarded.” Despite this criticism, all admired the freedom and hard work that are very much a part of the American way of life. All of our respondents described their stay here as fruitful and rewarding. Even a 70 year old respondent reported that his experience in the US has been good despite the tragic death of his elder son in the prime of his life.

This is not to say that everything is happy for these immigrants. The interviews and some further probing clearly suggest that migration has resulted in both difficulties and frustration, and that the experience has been emotionally taxing. Because of their educational and professional background, and because of their being good in English, these Indian immigrants did not find serious difficulty in finding employment. Nonetheless, many of them complained that they were not given positions according to their qualifications and experience. Some feel that in the course of time their capabilities were acknowledged and they were duly compensated. Others however feel that not only did they have to start with lower-level positions, but that they were also paid lower wages. The general sense is that the real difficulty is when you are competing with other Americans. Our data reveals that employment or place of work is the major source of strain for Indian immigrants. Why? They generally are well-settled and earn a good living, often they feel that they are not taken into the confidence of their employers and not given enough responsibilities or positions of leadership. It is believed that their potential is not recognized, and that sometimes they are undermined because of their physical or cultural differences or characteristics.

For Indians, employment problems are of a different nature than those usually faced by immigrants. Rather than finding and keeping a job, the real problem is faced in professional mobility. This is further indicated by the fact that an increasing number of professionals have established small businesses and are self-employed. Insurance and real estate have also attracted a number of people who were actually professionals in their respective professions.

With regard to the effect on the family, especially in terms of having a relationship between spouses and between parents and children, we find some differences since immigration and living in the US. These differences are not significant in the sense that the basic fabric of relationship is traditional although less authoritarian than in India. A number of respondents pointed out that had they remained in India, it would have been far less likely that their wives would be employed outside the home. Here many of the wives are employed outside the household. As a result, husbands often share some household responsibilities. Our respondents report that this has good results in terms of the development of closer relationships and a greater appreciation and acceptance of their wives as equals. However, some respondents have reported that this resulted in greater freedom for wives, which sometimes becomes a social conflict.

We find a consistent pattern running through the parent-child relationships. Parents are extremely concerned with retaining an Indian identity and raising their children in the Indian way. The majority of these children were either brought to the United States when they were very young age or were born here. The majority of the parents were already married when they emigrated from India. Many of those who were not already married returned to India for arranged marriages.

These simple facts provide some background on possible sources of conflict for parents and children.
The majority of Indian immigrants shows a great interest in India and maintains close contact with their homelands. There are those that show interest in India, but since they live so far away, it is not practical to maintain any close contact despite interest and efforts. Only a handful of immigrants have indicated that they have lost interest in Indian and that they are not interested in Indian affairs. All of our respondents asserted that Indian identity was very important to them. They suggested that Indian identity is so important and strong to them hat no matter where they live or how they live, they will always remain Indian. One result of migration was an increased consciousness of their Indian identity. “In India you take it for granted. The question of Indian identity does not arise. But in a new society, obviously you become self-conscious.” Some respondents argue that unless a conscious effort is made by the parents, the children will lose their identity.

One of the most interesting features of the many interviews I have conducted so far is the contently expressed desire of the Indian immigrant to return to India. Only some admit that they are not interested in returning. Nonetheless while the Indian immigrants left India voluntarily and can return if they want, only a handful have actually returned and resettled in India. (In this case, I would like to inform you that the embassy of India has come close to getting dual citizenship for Indians abroad, especially in the western hemisphere.) Although most want to return to India, they also realize that the desire is wishful thinking, a dream that is not likely to be fulfilled. This particular paradox sheds considerable light on the emotions of Indian immigrants. They live in two worlds separate and apart from one another. What we have observed is that [inaudible] in this case, on the one hand, at the psychological level there is a desire to return, on the other hand, because of the higher standard of living, income, and opportunities available in America, this desire is less likely to materialize. The question of serious social, psychological and emotional consequences of this state of ambivalence needs further exploration.

The history of Indians migrating to many parts of the world is a phenomenon that has been the object of study for quite some time. Apparently a traditional way of life, close family ties, and the persistence of Indian culture have been characteristic of Indian immigrant populations. The findings of our study are basically in line with others. Despite the fact that unlike those who went elsewhere the Indians immigrating to the US are unique in presenting high educational qualifications and being concentrated heavily in the professions. A careful examination of the evidence reveals that the adaptation process of Indian immigrants is dynamic in nature. There is more flexibility and tolerance in some areas than in others, and the relationship between tradition and modernity is not uni-dimensional. Indian immigrants are willing to subscribe to the norms of an industrial society in the context of the workplace. They reject these same norms in the context of family and friendship settings.
Coming to the end, this study suggests that unlike other immigrant groups, the structural assimilation of the Indian population is relatively easy. We also find that there is strong support to maintain ethnic identity. WE also find that the social, economic, and cultural background of this group is very different from that of other immigrant groups. Therefore, it is necessary to develop new models and critical approaches for studying such groups as the Indians. A comparative study of other new immigrants, especially Asian groups, might be very useful for tactical and theoretical considerations.

Epilogue. The real challenge then for Indian immigrants is to work out a middle ground which can provide support to the basic institutional arrangements of American society as well as assistance in preserving the wishes and aspirations of those people who are Americans and Indians. Let us hope that the Indian-American community in the United States will meet this challenge successfully and provide a [inaudible] for others to follow. The Indian-American community certainly has the potential and resources to provide certain models. Much depends, however, on the organizations and the leadership which is likely to play a vital role in the future directions of the Asian-Indian life in the United States.

Thank you very much.

Betty Lee Sung: I’m going to reserve the discussion and questions to the end when all the speakers have made their presentations. I think that will be better because there is a lot of commonality, in all of the things that we are going to say. At the same time there are differences between the various groups. But we will save all the questions until the end.

Now we will have Dr. Minhaj Qidwai, I hope my pronunciation is right. He is contributing editor of the South Asian Insider, and his topic is going to be on experiences of immigrants from Pakistan.

Minhaj Qidwai:
Thank you very much for this honor of presenting the Pakistani immigrants in the USA. There will be a lot of similarity between my presentation and Dr. Parmatma Saran’s presentation because we belong to the same ingredient.

The topic, as I said earlier, was about the experiences of Pakistani immigrants in the USA. Before I talk about the experiences of the Pakistani immigrants, let me give you a brief background of the country that I belong to. Pakistan was created in 1947 by the division of British India into Pakistan and India, two sovereign nations. The founder was Quaid-e-Azam (Great Leader) Mohammad Ali Jinnah. It was the first nation to be created on the basis of religion in the world.

Kashmir has been the unsolved agenda of the partition, and parts of India [inaudible] on this issue. In 1988, Pakistan tested nuclear weapons and entered the nuclear club.

It is located in South Asia, bordered to the East by India, to the west is Iran and Afghanistan, and to the north is China. The area is roughly half of California, so you can imagine how it is. The majority, 97%, are Muslims in Pakistan. The population is 150 million, and the birth rate is about 30%, the infant mortality rate is 76.53%, the literacy rate is 45.7%, the life expectancy is 62.2 years, and the language, national is Urdu, the official is English.

The migration of Pakistanis started in the late 1940s and early 50s. The initial migration was to England, we call it the British Empire. They started the migration, and up until now there are 500,000 Pakistanis living in England. Out of that 500,000, 250,000 were born in England. So we can then imagine that half the population now living in England, they are English-born.

As for the Pakistanis in America, the immigration started in the late 1950s and 60s especially because of the open-immigration policies of President Johnson and of Pakistan’s relationship with America.

1. Pakistani Population in America – Statistics:

In 1960, there were just 1700 Pakistanis in America. So we started with about 1700. By 1970, the population rose to about 6000. By 1980, to 66,000. In 1990, it was 150,000. But now the element of people were born in US, they started adding to the population. In 2000, it was estimated at 350,000. Now I did a small survey, and according to my survey it was about 400,000.
The average income of Pakistanis in America is about $40,000. The average age group is 25-50 years, and the average household is four to six members, and the average qualifications are mostly graduate.

[insert Powerpoint slide 2 here]

1. Types of Pakistanis in America:

There are seven categories of Pakistani Immigrants in the U.S.A.:
1.Pakistani Singles.
2.Pakistanis With Families.
3.Pakistani Male Married to Pakistani Female in America – The Green Card Syndrome.
4.Female Pakistanis Married to Pakistani Males.
5.Pakistani Male Married to Non-Pakistani Female American – The Contract Marriage Syndrome.
6.Pakistanis Children Raised In America
7.American-Born Children of Pakistani Immigrants.

III. Lifestyle Experiences of Pakistani Immigrants:

1. The Concept of the Family Unit:

Pakistan is a predominantly closed society in which the head of the family is the male, and the female is responsible for running the home. The children respect the elders of the family, and they are not abandoned at the age of eighteen years. There are some extended family members living with the family.
Here I would point out the Quid Pro Quo Syndrome:

The Quid Pro Quo Syndrome in America

In the closed Pakistani society, what happens is that usually the children are taken care of. They are not left in daycare centers. Therefore a love bond grows between the children and parents. What happens is that when the parents grow old, the children take care of their parents, and they are not left at the nursing homes.

Now, we see here in the U.S. that, since there are economic pressures on the males and the females, both are working. So the children have to be left at the daycare center or the babysitters. There is a lacing of that love bond between the children and the parents. So when the parents grow old, the children have less love bond between them, they leave the parents at the nursing homes. In America, nursing homes are the most important cause of rising healthcare costs, in the United States. So that’s what I wanted to say that in our society, parents usually are taken care of, they’re not left at the nursing homes, as the same we see over here, where the children are left at the daycare center, there’s no love bond, that’s the analogy that I wanted to present.

The Challenge to the Family System in the U.S.:

The feuds between husband and wives, they are very common. In our traditional society, there is strong family bonding that preserves the family structure, whereas in the case of the U.S., or here, the families, they [inaudible] work together about the differences and they end up into divorces.
Here I want to point out the agencies that come into play in these feuds, especially the role of Social Workers (SW). Most social workers, as in my experience, they are female, and they develop sympathies toward the females. They want them to have the feeling of female liberation, and develop a kind of association with them. So they are more sympathetic to the females and the males are left apart. There is apathy towards males in the system. So the males, they are usually left out in this loop and develop an uncompromising attitude in that system.

I think that what happens is that the cultural psychotherapy that we are fortunate of having—parents, colleagues, friends—that is not there, so the family splits apart. In our system, usually the children [inaudible] psychotherapy [inaudible] is prevented, whereas here it does not. So we are seeing very many cases of divorce rates going higher in the Pakistani population, which we will not see back in our country. So that is the challenge to the family system over here.

2. The Pakistani Male in America:

The Cash Cow of the Family
Let me talk about the Pakistani males. Males usually come over here to earn for themselves and their family. The males who are singles, they, I named them as cash cows of the family. They are here to earn for the family. And then they send the money back to the families. So the family is enjoying lavishly. They have big homes. One of my friends said “My wife spent 100,000 rupees just on furnishing the bathroom.” So he told me “I want to go and see what did she do in that bathroom that she spent so much of the money. I’m here working day and night to support the family, and she is spending money like that.”

So when the men who are already over here go back, they find they are under immense economic pressure because they have to maintain the standard of the family whose living over there. So I think they are frustrated and they come back over here and have to restart earning, they cannot get out of that circle because they have to support the family, and the family has some specific standards that are living over there. That is one of the problems with the system, that the males are the cash cows for the family.

These are people who are living independently. Now those males who are working here with families, I call them workaholics. Working day and night, they do not have enough time for the families. The children, they cannot communicate with the father because the father leaves early in the morning and comes home late at night so they hardly ever see him. Even the wives, they hardly get time to see them. So what happens is that the males over here, which we underestimate, they are left apart, they are left alone in society, and they try to look for some different engagements for themselves if they are left apart, because they do not have any specific communication channels established between the children and the wife. So the males, as I said are the cash cows or the workaholics in society.

The Green Card Syndrome
We are [inaudible] back in the country, home, then we’ll go so we can get a green card so we can go and get married over here and we can apply for a green card and our family can also come. Now, we do not foresee the consequences of a green card. When a male comes over here and gets married, he is in a bond. He cannot leave that bond. The children come up with the family, so he cannot go back. So what happens that he’s really frustrated, because the choice is not his, his choice was the green card, so as soon as he gets a green card or citizenship, the family starts bothering him, he either quits or tries to compromise, but under severe mental stress because his choice was not family, his choice was green card, which he gets at the end.

We are told in Pakistan that we can go over to America and get married over here so can get a green card over here and are families can come. But we do not see the consequences of the green card syndrome. The man that comes over here and gets married, he is in a bond. He can not leave this bond. Children come. He cannot leave. He is very frustrated. As soon as he gets the green card, the family starts to bother him. He either quits or tries to compromise. But under severe mental stress, because his choice was not a family, his choice to marry was for a green card.

The Contract Marriage Syndrome
Now the Pakistanis who are living over here want to get legalized, some of them are illegal. So what they do is enter into a contract marriage system, where they pay a small amount, sum to a female, and then they get married to that female. And then when the marriage time ends, when the contract time period ends, they get a [green card], and then they call their families to live over here. That is what the contract marriage syndrome is [reported as]. So, there are two syndromes, the Green Card syndrome and the Contract Marriage system for the males. [These immigrants, once getting their green card or citizenship, in most cases opt for divorce from their wives, and marry a woman of their own choice from Pakistan or in the USA.]

3. Pakistani Females in America:

In our society, the females are not that liberated. When they come over here they have new experiences, and female liberty dominates on them. Female liberty in our culture is not accepted by the males. They don’t want the females to enjoy too much liberty. So these males, they try to suppress the females in the system, and again there are feuds within the family. The families either break apart or they live together.
The problem is that the females is also working in the system because of economic pressures. When the female is working and the husband wants her to be treated as if she is just working for him and the family. Remember that when the female and males both come back home after working, the husband wants that the female should bring supper, dinner, lunch, whatever time it is. When this does not happen, when the female says, “Hey, I’m also working. I come here after work and I cannot serve you dinner. Go ahead, go into the refrigerator, everything is available, take out and eat, bring me something too.” The thing is that, this, again, produces friction in the family. This is usually not acceptable, and again there are a lot of instances of experiences that lead the families to break apart. The system again creates problems. For non-working females, usually there is a low literacy rate among the non-working females, there’s a language barrier, and they’re shy to move around, so what happens is that, as my colleague said earlier, they do not participate in the parent-teacher meetings, they are not part of the PTA’s, because they are in a shell, they do not want to come out of that shell, basically. So they cannot have influence on the school system that we want our children to grow in. So they cannot keep a balance between the children who are studying something at school, and when they come home they study something else. So there is a clash between the children who are growing in that imbalanced system.

[These are challenges to the family. Depression, isolation, feuds, and fatigue may also lead to broken homes or even consideration of divorce; but usually the culture or the presence of children prevents it.]

4. Pakistani Elderly Population

Usually in our system the elderly population lives with the children, the fathers, mothers and all the in-laws. Whatever the population, they are left along because husband and wife both are working. They feel frustrated. Either they compromise or they go back. They say, “We cannot live in this country. We have our friends and our circles. We cannot live with you like that. Send us our money and we are happy over there.” So they go back and live back in Pakistan.
Now, the thing is that these elderly who are living with the family are an asset to the family, which they do not realize, probably. Because these elderly, they:
–Taking care of the children
–Resolving family disputes
–Psychotherapy
–Economic support of the family in case it is needed
But ultimately since they do not feel as members of the society, they go back.

5. Pakistani Children in America

Pakistani children are a synthesis of American morals and the cultural values. They are unable to make a balance between our cultural values and American morals. They have receding knowledge of the system, because they are born or raised over here. Then there is a clash going on, especially when they reach high school because there they try to identify themselves, they are growing up, they are becoming independent. There was a motion picture earlier, I don’t know if there are a few people who might have seen this, “ABCD” (American Born Confused Desi); so they develop according to that [inaudible] they are confused, they do not know what to do, and try to have their own world within that particular system.

Those children who are born in America, they aremore independent but on the other side they are losing the cultural values that we belong to. This is a problem because they have begun rejecting arranged marriages, dresses, expressions. [These children have receding knowledge of Urdu. They have opted for American life and have developed an agnostic approach to theology.]

Sexual Orientation:
Now another problem children face in the society is the concept of premarital sex. Premarital sex is one of those problems that, due to which American teenage pregnancies is highest among [inaudible]. Whereas in Pakistani society, premarital sexual activities are forbidden, and the male partner wants an untouched bridged, so that is again a problem. Pakistani immigrants face this problem.

Now pre-marital sex is not openly discussed, even sexual orientation is not openly discussed back in our country. And the children, they develop on their own, to have their own experiences about their sexual orientation, where they are taught over here about their sexual orientation, but then they are indulging in pre-marital sex that we do not want our children indulging into.

We can make an analogy between pre-marital sex and substance abuse.

Substance Abuse
Now, an analogy to pre-marital sex is substance abuse. Substance abuse is also very common in society, and our children are being exposed also to substance abuse, and especially on the college campuses. Children, they are very much exposed to this, and it is a challenge for us to prevent this substance abuse.
Now, there are laws for substance abuse, but as far as our perspective is concerned, the social, cultural has accepted pre-marital sex, and there is nothing to prevent it.

Issue of learning to call 911
Another issue is of teaching the child to learn to call 911. Being an American, the child is taught to use 911 even if it is only for a single scratch on the face (which may be a part of their training by the mother, and not considered as abuse in Pakistan). Our traditional values are that we teach our children by telling them, and even sometimes by harping on them. Now if this kind of thing comes up over here, the child calls 911 and the child is taken away. The consequences of calling this 911 to our children, that is not clear. Because when the child is taken away, he will be with foster parents and he will learn the foster parents’ cultural values which we do not want out children to see. So this is again a challenge to the system and our society.

III. Income:
Now, experiences of Pakistani immigrants as far as income is concerned. Now, most of the Pakistanis, they are here for a longer time, so they are not wealthy, but, according to the 1990 census, Pakistani-Americans are the second highest ethnic group for per person income.

1. Education:

As far as education, the males are mostly educated, they are graduates and masters. But sometimes it’s really frustrating to see that those people who are computer engineers, we see them working at the gas station or pumping gas into our cars. So there is again a balance that needs to be found as far as the system is concerned, where the job situation is very bad for people. The literacy rate for Pakistani females is low. However, there are Pakistani females who are professionals and doctors but total quantity is very low.

1. Profession:

As far as profession is concerned, Pakistani arranges with experts working in big American corporations to those working for the U.S. government, and having their own business. The engagements of include: IT experts, doctors, pharmacists, cab driving, owners of grocery stores, gas stations, hotels and restaurants.

1. Health Issues of Pakistani Immigrants:

Health issues include the stress for males and cardiovascular problems for the males. [Pakistanis suffer the same health problems same as that of other migrants from South Asia. The most common health issues for males include Asthma, Bronchitis, Tuberculosis, Mental Stress, Diabetes, Hypertension, etc.] For the females there is more depression, isolation, and stress. Obesity, which is the second leading cause of preventable death in America, fortunately is not found in the Pakistani population. This is probably due to the fact that females are cooking at home, and probably we burn enough calories.

VII. Pakistanis as Muslims in America:
In 1492, when Columbus discovered America, he had two Muslim captains in his voyage, he discovered America. Traces of Muslims have been found back in Texas. The total Muslim population in America is about four to six million; of South Asian Muslims are 600,000 to 700,000.
But the Muslims they face problems as far as culture, profiling problems, and security problems. It’s difficult [inaudible] when you’re working, usually it’s difficult for us, and even [inaudible], which is not understood by the common person. By the year 2010, America’s Muslim population will be the second largest after Christianity. So maybe by that time, Islam may be better understood among the Americans.

VIII. Summary:
America’s high-tech advances have led people to migrate. It is a great country. It is a land of opportunities. But, the intricacies that are involved in migration, are difficult to understand until you arrive over here.
To summarize, Pakistani Immigrant population can be categorized in three categories:
–Hard core Pakistani Immigrants: the hard core still follows the traditional values, and for them Pakistan, and Islamic values are of prime importance. These are the majority, about 60% in America
–Soft Core Pakistani Immigrants: The soft core Pakistani Americans are proud to be called Americans and have two obsessions: to loathe everything that is Pakistani and to praise anything that is American. They constitute about 30% of the Pakistani population in America.
–Young Pakistani immigrants: And then there are children who are American children, and they are being developed in this society where they face [inaudible] crisis. They are failing to have a balance between their values and our values back at home. The traditionalists are more directed toward education, while the extroverts as the American children are fond of the three M’s -Movies, Magazines, and Music.

[insert slide 16 here]
[insert slide 17 here]

On the positive side, we have the family values, the love bond between the children and parents, the arranged marriage system, and the lower divorce rate. While the grappling issues include the Green Card syndrome, the contract marriage syndrome, pre-marital sex, and dating, profiling, security issues, job placements, clash of cultural values, and female liberty.

Solutions to the problems, as we foresee, are the preservation of family values and keeping a balance within the values of the American system—taking off the stress that we get from this society and harping on the stress that we have from our culture.

More into this political system. We are very few in the political system. [The flow of business entrepreneurs has added new dimensions to the community development of overseas Pakistanis. There is a “new class” of traders from grocery stores to the Internet dot.com companies. There is self-realization among the Pakistani immigrants that in order to bring any meaningful change in their status, and to be heard in the society, they need to interlace with the political system of the country. This is the only way that they can be heard, and bring justifiable solutions to the problems they face in America.
Thank you.]

Betty Lee Sung: Thank you, Dr. Qidwai. When we are talking about some of these ethnic values and traditions, and so forth, as we were talking I was thinking that we are in this country and we are part of America. In fact, how many of us Asians really say they want to go back to their homelands? I did a study one time, this is quite a while ago, and we asked, well how many Chinese Americans go back to China. At that time, of course it was different because China was under Communist dictatorial rule and the people who came here—those students and workers—they wanted to stay. And I think only about two percent went back. But now it is a little bit different. There are more opportunities in the mother country and so forth. And I think that is also true for India and South Asia. But the thing is, if you think about it, we are in this county, and although are a lot of ethnic values we want to keep, and our heritage and so forth, we also say, well, look, we are here, we are part of this country, there are opportunities that are here for us and these are the benefits that we enjoy. So we have to think about, how about integrating some of the American values into our own values, taking the best of both and integrating them. But it’s very, very important to understand our own heritage and know where we’re coming from so we can choose and pick and appreciate both sides.
That was one of the comments I wanted to make because I myself have taught Asian American studies for so many years and that is the perspective that I try to impart to my students.

Now our next speaker is Mr. Moinuddin Naser. He is the joint editor of the paper Bangla Patrika, and his topic is going to be on the Bangladeshi immigrants and their security problems. I am glad he is going to bring this up because we know that after 9/11 those of us who look different, those of us who are Muslim, have been under attack and been mistaken for terrorists, taken for terrorists. This is a big problem. And believe me, this has been a problem for the rest of us, especially the Chinese, the Japanese, when we were at work, especially during WWII when the Japanese were interned, and for the Chinese when the Chinese government was taken over and taken for Communist. So we have shared those problems before, and now we’d like to hear from Mr. Naser about what the Bangladeshi are going through.

[applause]

Moinuddin Naser: Thank you, Mrs. Betty. Actually, the Bangladeshi, like other South Asian countries share the same basic values and culture. And the [inaudible] we also share this kind of problems in America.

I want to…actually let me leave out [inaudible] background Why the Bangladeshi are coming to the USA, and how they are different. History of the Bangladeshi are a bit different. The community, the Bangladeshi community is a bit more backward than other South Asian countries, in comparison to China and India, because of the particular history.

[inaudible]
There is no specific date since when Bangladeshis have started coming to the USA. But different sources particularly the history of the development of the USA shows that Bengali immigrants were brought here like the other black slaves and their coming to the USA started in the year [1763]. It was after six year of invasion of the British merchants in Bengal. Bengal’s lost its independence just on June 23, 1957. [At that time there was no tea garden in Bengal like the present ones. But tea used to be produced there. Probably the European who wanted to produce teas in America found that Bengal’s and Assam’s labor forces would be useful to engage them in producing teas. However probably the trend of bringing slaves from Bengal stopped with the dawning of independence of America. The independence of America was marked by sending of gifts from Tipu Sultan of India, who later was defeated by British forces and lost his empire.] With the independence of America bringing slaves from Bengal now Bangladesh stopped. But that has also stopped immigration of Bangladeshis to America for about one hundred years.

However by the end of 19th century some Bengali speaking people from West Bengal of India came to USA and after the first World War, Bangladeshis started coming to the USA. One Ibrahim Chowdhury who died only two years ago (known as the Bangladeshi Columbus) is the one who was among those Bangladeshis who came to the United States in 1916 or 1917. But many Bangladeshis came here even before him .One Tabarak Ali who married a black US lady first acquired US citizenship through marriage before 1921, when the new immigration law was enacted. We don’t find any specific trace of the Bangladeshis who were reportedly brought to the USA by Sir Edward Ryan for producing teas. B the attempt of growing teas in America failed. Later they were shifted to South and West Indies where they were engaged to grow cotton. Many of them were settled in Pennsylvania and Savannah.

The trade between USA and Bengal was established in 1780. At that time China used to import furs from USA, which is now going on the other way round, and Jute and Cotton goods would come from Calcutta port for New York, Boston and Savannah. After enactment of British Shipping Act of 1823 the Bangladeshis started working as seamen of ship and the Bangladeshis started coming to USA as seamen by the end of 19^th century. All Bangladeshis who arrived after 1880 till 1950 were jumped and known as ship jumpers in America. The trend increased after first World War. They were regarded as early settlers with no skills. However entering the USA by jumping out from ships continued until 1970, but after 1950 many people started coming with a student visa or immigration visa. In 1965 when the US government cancelled the Quota System imposed in 1921, which allowed only the European to immigrate to America through their relatives, the Bangladeshis like other Asian started applying for immigration of their relatives to enter the USA. In 1989 the number of Bangladeshis living in the USA stood at 50,000. (Speech of the US Ambassador to Bangladesh Sir W Dee Pree on April 3, 1989) These settlers start moving from New York to Toledo, Detroit and other parts of the mid west, later to California. At that time jobs in USA were plenty and they found the life was easier here.

According to a report compiled by one Shamem A. Chowdhury, that second wave of seamen from Bengal who entered the USA occurred after World War II. Bengal was partitioned and distributed East Bengal to Pakistan and West Bengal to India. He stated: “The Bangladeshi seamen realized their job in shipping is over since Calcutta being in West Bengal. These seamen start escaping to America. In mid 1950s the beginning of a new wave, mixed of first generation Bangladeshi students, doctors, other professionals and second generation immigrants pouring into America. The generation that introduced America with Bangladeshi nostalgia. The majority came as students, exchange visitors or grants through Colombo plan, Ford and Rockefeller Foundation, and most recently through OP and DV Programs. Some of the visitors, both skilled and unskilled, have stayed behind legally or illegally in this country for a better life and to gain economical benefits.

Most of the first generation of immigrants in the USA struggled for their education to achieve professional status and some went to education and teaching and some immigrants became entrepreneurs establishing small businesses. Where the first generation seamen struggled for survival, Bangladeshis achieved the reputation as architects of the world’s tallest building, the Sears Tower, contributed to NASA’s space program and computer engineering technology and in medical and surgical fields, very few took the help of state aid and if so, for a very short time. Now there is a great segment of Bangladeshi population who are contributing in economy and technology in the United States. Together, the unskilled Bangladeshi population is progressing with mainstream America. It is expected the USA will be ‘Fourth Bangla’ of the world, second Bangla being West Bengal of India and third Great Britain.” At present day there are about 350,000 Bangladeshi living in the United States. The highest concentration is in New York. While the second highest will be in Michigan and third in Los Angeles. New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Washington, Virginia, Maryland, Chicago, Boston, Texas, Houston, Minnesota and Arizona are also the places where Bangladeshi people are living now. This includes illegal and legal immigrants, businessman and travelers and other categories. This new generation brought the tie between the Bangladeshi heritage and culture to North America. It’s a sort of dilemma for Bangladeshis in the USA and that is the conflict between the love for the land of choice to live and love for the land of birth. Infusing Bangladesh culture into the diverse culture of the USA will ultimately enrich the American culture. The Bangladeshis, [inaudible], now the Bangladeshi, they are [inaudible], and a lot of [inaudible] have gone up, have organized, [inaudible] mainstream population to [inaudible].

However Bangladeshis had no dearth of love for the USA. However during the year of war of independence that was fought in the year 1971, when the U.S. administration sided with Pakistan occupation force ignoring the world opinion, Bangladeshis attitude towards America was a bit different. But soon after the independence of Bangladesh and recognition of the USA to Bangladesh in 1973 the Bangladeshis started changing their attitude.

Now the east 6th street of lower Manhattan, which is known as little India, but virtually dominated by Bangladeshis. Most of the restaurants in this area are owned by Bangladeshis. The Church McDonalds area of Brooklyn houses at least 30 groceries and tea stalls and professional offices, the Jackson Heights area of Queens has become known as little Bangladesh. At least 200 shops and establishments in this area are owned by the Bangladeshis. The Parkchester area of Bronx are gradually housing increasing number of Bangladeshis. Astoria and Ozone Park area of Queens are densely populated by Bangladeshis. Legally through OP and D.V programs since 1989 a total of about 40,000 new families entered the USA, while many more have entered through the family integration.
[inaudible] already spoken about those communication problems and [inaudible]. [Like other Muslim communities Bangladeshis in the U.S.A. have also faced many onslaughts of snowball effect since the September 11 tragic attack of the terrorists in America. Bangladeshis in many areas also had been subjected to hate crime. Here it is to be mentioned that in Bangladesh Islam was preached by the Sufis, who respect all religions and believe in “love for all, hate for none.” So Bangladeshis avoid all kinds of extremisms. However with the passage of time they have overcome all these problems.]

By nature the Bangladeshis are hardworking people. They are very much cautious to maintain their own culture. They are also peace loving. Though more and more people are being involved with the American politics, most of them are active in doing the politics of their native country sitting in America. You would find at least 250 organizations of Bangladeshis who are engaged in practicing the politics and culture of their native country. Bangladesh Institute of Performing Arts, Bangladesh Cultural Academy and many other organizations are now working day and night to popularize Bangladeshi culture in America.
Bangladesh is a democratic country with Muslim majority. As such it expected some special treatment when the US administration was tightening the security of the country.

Bangladeshis thought that they would not have to incur the wrath of the “Confusing Special Registration Programs” of the Administration. But when Bangladesh was included for special registration many Bangladeshis who were here illegally left the country. Not only that, many of the Bangladeshis who became citizens of the USA have opted for leaving the U.S., and I know a lot of people from here that left[inaudible].However, now those who are living in the USA have become more community-oriented and they are trying to cope with the situation. U.S. society has remained the most versatile one in respect to absorbing the people of diverse origins from different parts of the world. This society’s absorbing capacity of people from different races is both its strength as well as its weakness. Bangladeshis, I think, will survive and make up their destined goal gradually and contribute in this society. [inaudible] of the Bangladeshi community, [inaudible], and most of the Bangladeshis there have come legally, they have come through a [inaudible] program. The [inaudible] that were coming here, they are [inaudible], not that much, [inaudible]. So [inaudible], the South Asian communities[inaudible], they can [inaudible] to look out for each others’ [inaudible], and [inaudible] a common goal together. Truly, we can [inaudible] South Asian communities because [inaudible] that can sit and discuss [inaudible], because [inaudible] are there, [inaudible], and we have a lot of things in common to go ahead, [inaudible].
Thank you very much.

[applause]

Betty Lee Sung: Thank you, Mr. Naser. You just said the Bangladeshis first came in 1783?

Moinuddin Naser: 1763. They were brought here by the British merchants.

Betty Lee Sung: I thought the Chinese were the first ones here.

Moinuddin Naser: They were brought by the English. Then it stopped after six to 11 years, when the [America] became independent. After they became independent, the program stopped [inaudible].

Betty Lee Sung: Thank you. Now I have the honor to introduce our [inaudible] speaker, Professor Min, where is he? Professor Min is a very well-known scholar of Korean American studies. He has written so many books, I can’t remember and I can’t give you a title exactly, maybe he’ll tell us of his studies of Korean Americans. And now he has launched into a different field, he is doing a study under a grant from our Institute. I believe it’s true, [inaudible] our wrath that you are working under. He is doing a study of attitudes toward the South Asian students, especially the Muslim students, since 9/11. And we are very anxious to hear what he has to say about his interviews with South Asian Muslim students here at Queens College. Professor Pyong Gap Min, [I always get] mixed up, Professor Min.

[applause]

Pyong Gap Min: Okay, my research project intended to examine experiences of 1.5 and second generation South Asian college students. I intended to interview, get about, more than 100 interviews, but so far about 50 [inaudible], and actually I analyzed [inaudible], I made a preliminary analysis of [inaudible], so it’s preliminary. This project has been supported by Asian, Asian Institute, CUNY grant. I made the title “Religion, [Hospitality], and Their Identity: South Asian students”. For South Asian Muslims, [inaudible] their identity, partly because it can be the foundation of their volumes, norms, [inaudible] and other cultural components. [inaudible] right now, South Asian Muslims are under attack, so like other racial minorities, they are subject to prejudice, discrimination, and even physical violence because of their religion, so this is very important here. I think New York is the ideal place for this kind of researching. I see [inaudible], Pan-Asian, Pan-South Asian a lot, Pan-Asian [ethnic] formation, and here we have a large South Asian [inaudible], more than any other place. Indians are highly concentrated, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis are even more concentrated. This is the center. So this is a good area for that kind of research. [inaudible], but there are some other [inaudible].

First of all, I am not sure what kind of experience with discrimination and [inaudible] them. I can divide the experience into four categories. First of all, they have been subject to prejudice and kind of, rejection. It’s [inaudible] very covert, simply people feel comfortable, when Muslims feel them, they are silenced but they stare at them, particulary when a woman has her head covered. Vast majority, 90%, have this kind of problem. Students don’t want to sit close to them; simply, they don’t feel comfortable, when they [interrupt] meetings, things like that. So, this is very obvious thing, in certain ways a lot of problems, many people stare at them.

Second category is [over]-abuse and [over]-aggression, now they express [inaudible], rejection and prejudice in the form of cursing, screaming, shouting, and now, I interviewed the 1.5 who were born in South Asia and came early, [inaudible], and most of them who are 1.5, they were born there. So in elementary school they had a lot of problems. At that time other students didn’t know if they were Muslim or not, but they were called Hindu, based on their accent and physical characteristics, they assumed they were Indian Hindu. So, some of them were beaten by White, or Black, Latino students. And in high school, many of the students tried [inaudible]. This happened a lot. They say, “This is a Christian country, why do you wear this here?” Things like that. And on the street, when they are waiting for the bus, subway, [inaudible], many [women] abuse them. Why do they wear this here? Even Latino immigrants; “This is a Christian country, you should not wear this here”. [inaudible], they shouted, “Go back to your country, get out of here!”. Many Muslims have been asked to go back, sometimes I have [inaudible] listen [inaudible], they are more, [inaudible] [inaudible] South Asian women have [inaudible], you are Osama Bin Laden’s girlfriend, or wife, [inaudible]. After the World Trade Center, they had this kind of problem. They have to pray five times, [inaudible], this is a Christian country. When they worked in [inaudible] store, a black person would say, I don’t want to come here, I don’t want to deal with you, they rejected, and they said “we are not going to buy anything from you”. So, based on this, Muslims will have a problem in getting results. Managers and owners know people they hire who are Muslim, they will have problems with customers. So people we asked whether they experienced discrimination or not, when they see the [inaudible] in the job market, they have been disadvantaged.

Number three, many have been subject to physical violence. So I may [inaudible] the definition of physical violence. They don’t have to be beaten, but they throw something, students were hit, someone tried to hit them in school, threw orange peels, threw pens and [inaudible], [inaudible], and someone tried to throw [an egg] at me, someone spit, not to me, but close to my sister. [inaudible], family members or friends, they know about that. My sister’s friend [inaudible]. Even some threw firecrackers at my friend at Queens College. One person tried to cross the street, and [inaudible], so he ran away. I think we can mention these are second generation [inaudible] who speak English perfectly, and still they have a lot of problems, and they say immigrant students have more problems, I didn’t interview immigrants, but one person was of descent Pakistan, he was singled out by school and he was [inaudible]. And definitely by pattern, immigrants have more problems after World Trade Center. When they worked at the parking lot, [cold weather] was okay, when people passed there, they said, “Why do you work here? You are a terrorist.” And a lot of people, they say they are terrorists after 9/11.

One student, she [inaudible] to her name, and someone next to her said, “Terrorist!”. [inaudible]. [inaudible], it happened just after 9/11, so she stopped going to school after one week, she was scared. Particularly after 9/11, many shouted, they were scared, many students had used the subway and they were scared, and when they were waiting [inaudible]. Now, I have some cases of discrimination, of 10 people indicated they were discriminated against, and this should have been [inaudible] of the presentation. They are not active in the job market, so they will come to more discrimination later when they go to the job market. Now, [inaudible] she is a [student] driver, [inaudible], always he did not have time for driving appointments. She tried to make it, but she felt like it was prejudiced, he tried to avoid her. Another person said, she tried to [inaudible], [inaudible], she felt he did not want her to make [inaudible] there. One woman was hired as a receptionist at Queens College, and then later the manager said, [inaudible], and the excuse was that there were budget cuts, but actually she found, within a few days, someone else was working there, there was no budget cut. So she felt [inaudible] job, and as a receptionist, maybe the manager felt it’s not good for other people. So [inaudible] they took me out because [inaudible], I was working at the front desk, I didn’t like that. So [inaudible] definitely had trouble with police officers. More often, they were stuck [inaudible], one person said, definitely he didn’t violate speeding limits but [inaudible]. And several people indicated their parents were having more problems with discrimination in terms of buying a house or an apartment, an old person [inaudible]. A lot of people have problems with her parents. One person said, her father lost [inaudible], because they [inaudible] a long time, [inaudible]. After 9/11, students said, non-Muslim friends tried not to sit close, and even didn’t try to talk, because they were afraid of prejudice from other people. One person’s brother, his car was destroyed, because his car was [inaudible]. One person was working as a UPS [inaudible] at UPS, and he has [inaudible] packaging, and a co-worker said, “I hope there is no bomb in the packaging”. And one person was laid off after 9/11, one person was threatened by saying, “We will bomb all Muslims.” But also, after 9/11, many faculty members and other people tried to help them. They asked [inaudible] okay at home, and people should be more interested in Islam and Pakistan, other Muslim countries. Teachers were [inaudible], Christians, [inaudible].

Okay, I will very quickly, not much time, so I will quickly [inaudible]. About their observance of religious rituals and practice of rituals. Whether, I asked the [persons] whether they prayed five times a day, and 31 out of 42 said, always or most of the time, they pray five times, so they are very religious. And I asked the [persons] whether they fast in the Islamic month of Ramadan, and it’ surprising, 38 of 42 said, every day of the month, they fasted, higher than I expected. Whether they observe Islamic ritual [inaudible], [inaudible], 40 out of 42 said they are strict observers. I asked, how well can you read the Qur’an? 33 out of 42 say, very well, or well. How often do you read the Qur’an and other Islamic books? 23 of them said, once a week or more often.

I asked them, other Islamic values, what kind of other values they observed, and they listed here this is a large proportion, [30 persons] said, no drinking, no smoking, no gambling, no going to parties, and no drugs. [30 of the 42]. And [inaudible] people talk about caring about their neighbors, respecting others and parents, and honesty, no [inaudible], no criticism, so [inaudible]. So overall, they keep a high level of religious values, I asked a [Christian] about their friendship, [inaudible], I asked them who were their three best friends, the vast majority of them told you, South Asian Muslims, many [inaudible] Pakistan, [inaudible], South Asian Muslims. [inaudible], so no problem. The Bangladeshi has Indian Muslim, Pakistani Muslim, but after that [inaudible] Muslim or South Asian Muslim, then the next category is Indian Hindu, so this is a very positive sign. Second generation [inaudible] feel they can make friends with Indian Hindu, 70%, Hindu is one of their three best friends [inaudible]. And then, black muslims, latino, other Asian, I assumed many will choose [inaudible] Indian Muslims, but there is more [inaudible] against my expectation. We asked a [Christian] about dating according to the Islamic group, they are [not supposed to date the people they marry]. So I think they can hide, because if dating is a violation of the rule, [inaudible], people [inaudible], two people said no comment, so I assume [inaudible], so even those that say no may be [inaudible]. Even people who are much less religious, and their dating partners are white or even different people, even Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, White Christian. So [inaudible] are not religious, if they are religious they would not have done this. I asked a [Christian] about their medical partner, who is the [inaudible], as expected, [inaudible] is Muslim. Even the person who dated a Korean, definitely as a medical partner, [inaudible] Muslim, because religion is my foundation. An [old person], Pakistani wants to marry Pakistani Muslim, and actually South Asian Muslim, but majority say at least Muslim, so they have a strong religious identity. And when I talk about identity I’m seeing a very consistent pattern.

So, Muslims, then [inaudible], South Asian Muslims, [inaudible] partner, and definitely no one said Muslim background is not important as a [partner] or they say, if they are not religious, still they expect to marry a Muslim. This indicates they have strong religious values.

About their identity, I asked them whether religious or ethnic national origin, or South Asian or Asian American identity is important. The vast majority said, Muslim identity is central, but some say, [ethnic] identity and Muslim, they are equally important, and only a few say national identity is more important than religion. A few Pakistanis said that. I can read some of the comments about why religion is so important.

“ I think it is most important to be called Muslim, especially in times like now, when all Muslims are gathered in one basket.” So they are singled out as groups, so [inaudible] enhance their religious identity. And then he said, “National origin is not allowed in Islam, therefore ethnic identity is not important”. Another person: “I identify myself with Islam and by my name Islam only because Islam doesn’t have national boundaries.” Another person: “I am a Muslim, I do not want to call myself a Pakistani, because they have bad manners and Pakistani society is corrupt. I think people know about Islam better here than in Pakistan.”

I asked whether South Asians or Asian American identity is more important, and [inaudible], “I think East Asian is [consider themselves] with Asian American, whereas South Asian is South Asian identity”. As expected, the majority think South Asian identity is more important than Asian American, and they have different religion. [inaudible] and cultural components, [inaudible] said, they share a common historical experience, from the same country, colonization, and [inaudible] emphasize their origins, “we came from South Asia.” Here’s one more person: “I have a strong South Asian identity because many South Asians are subjected to more prejudice and discrimination than East Asians because of our skin color.” But about 35 persons believed Asian American identity is more important, and here’s one more person. “I want to be called Asian American, because when you think South Asian, you think of two nuclear countries, Pakistan and India, that have always tried to fight each other.” That is the reason why [inaudible] South Asian. I should stop there.

[applause]

Betty Lee Sung: Wasn’t that an interesting panel? Thank you very much, Professor Min. Now are we are going to open the floor to discussions and questions. We will recognize people from the floor.

Q&A
**************
Nabeel Sarwar (Syracuse University): Thank you. First I’d like to make general comment. I was a little surprised and dismayed by the presentations I heard, [inaudible] speakers making anecdotes and gross generalizations and [inaudible] any evidence which failed to support a lot of contentions that were made, [inaudible] evidence [inaudible], as to where the numbers come from or where the observations come from. In terms of specific questions and specific numbers, I have two questions directed at two speakers, make that three. Firstly is Dr. Qidwai, and second is the gentleman who spoke after him.

You said that there were 400,000 Pakistanis in North America, I’m just wondering where you got that number from. You said you conducted a small survey and [inaudible], how did you do it, what [inaudible] did you use. Second question, [inaudible], you said 350,000 Bangladeshis in America, and you [inaudible]. [inaudible]. Could you just give us some numbers and some evidence to support your contention? Thank you.

Minhaj Qidwai: Well, according to the 2000 survey that was where I picked up the initial [inaudible], I took that from the CIA factbook.

Sarwar: Which factbook?

Qidwai: The CIA factbook about Pakistan. Yeah. That said Pakistanis would be 300,000 by 2000, by the year 2000 there are 300,000 Pakistanis, [inaudible]. And then on that I conducted a small survey, about 200 questions which I gave to community members over here, and they [pointed out] that the population is about [500,000] that is the range [inaudible].

Sarwar: What is the basis of this survey, how [inaudible] was it conducted?

Qidwai: It was just 200 questions, which was distributed throughout the USA. I could communicate to my friends, and they came back with the answer, that was the feedback that I got.

Moinuddin Naser: Okay, [inaudible] Bangladesh, [inaudible] approximately the Bangladeshis living in the United States would be 350,000. If you go to the census report in 2000, actually the census report, they [inaudible] from 1979-1999, a total of [inaudible], 2,222 [inaudible] legally from 1979 to 1999. Every year, three to four thousand Bangladeshis are admitted to the United States through diversity [inaudible]. And I, this is the basis of my assumption, in 1995 [inaudible] study, [inaudible], you go to the website of the [inaudible], and if you go to the [inaudible] Bangladesh, you will find in 1995, a total of 240,000, the [inaudible] was 240,000.

Sarwar: Based on the [inaudible]. [inaudible] diversity program.

Naser: And if you add to that, three to four thousand every year who enter on the diversity [inaudible], it should come around 350,000.

Betty Lee Sung: Professor Saran?

Parmatma Saran: Yeah. These questions were not directed to me, but I feel compelled to make a small observation. These numbers are important, but they’re really not critical from our point of view. What we’re really interested in seeing, what has happened to our lives? It could be [200,000-500,000], according to census, for example, Indian population is about a million and a half. My calculation is that there’s a lot more than that, the students are not included, my position is that most of the graduate students who continue staying here, of course the illegal immigrants are not included. So if you get into that numbers game, it becomes, it’s a nice game, but it becomes, and your questions are, it’s a very valid point, but what I’m suggesting is that in [inaudible] of these numbers, we can still get a pretty good picture of what’s going in their lives.

Nabeel Sarwar: I think that’s a good point, absolutely, but I think the numbers are crucial. I think they will give you some basis [inaudible], and they will also give you some basis for analysis, and [inaudible].

Parmatma Saran: Of course. Sure.

Moinuddin Naser: Technically, just one more thing, that according to either speaker, there are [30,000] Pakistanis who are coming since 1990 onwards, per year. So that can also help you in answering some questions.

Betty Lee Sung: Well, we know that Asians are one of the largest growing groups, minority groups in the United States. Yes?

Nabeel Sarwar: Another point has risen to me. [inaudible] conference, and the gentleman from India, I don’t know his name, but he’s a professor at MIT, and he came out with [600,000] Indians and [inaudible] living in the U.S. on the basis of CIA reports, on the basis of U.S. census, and on the basis of [inaudible], plus he backed it up with [inaudible[ studies that [inaudible] in the U.S. The numbers the two gentlemen gave are near the ballpark. I do agree with what Professor Saran is saying. We do have a basis here. The numbers are there. That’s secondary. What’s important, the pertinent issues are [inaudible]. I also wanted to [inaudible] that many of the presentations were not [inaudible]. [inaudible]. You really have to look at the objective of the conference, and I really appreciate the involvement of Professor Saran in [inaudible] bringing people to this forum and [inaudible]. Thank you very much.

Betty Lee Sung: Professor Jenner?

Donald Jenner: My question is to Dr. Min. I am intrigued with the early part of your presentation. You described a number of events that [inaudible], you obviously were in a direct position to observe. It seems to me that we could divide those events. Some of them are clearly bias events, almost a tribal assertion by one group or another against yet another, white anglo-saxon [inaudible], or whatever. And some of them seem to be from anger, which is quite different, I think you’d agree. And some of it, from the way you described it, sounds more like an imperative establishing of particular, sort of alpha- dominance, [inaudible], that there are these kinds of, and clearly the biology would support that, and the psychology. If that’s the case, how are we going to pick up on those differences, distinguish them, and show them through mere survey research? Will the survey research even begin to reflect that? Or is it going to get lost, and sort of the details become fuzzy?

Pyong Gap Min: You mean, because it is not random sampling?

Donald Jenner: It’s not just with random samplings, it seems to be there are different elements that are given [inaudible], just by the very nature of the instruments that are being used, sort of another side to the numbers question. He’s more concerned with counting them, I’m more concerned with dividing them out.

Min: You are saying I made a broader definition of verbal abuse or physical violence?

Donald Jenner: Yeah…

Min: But when someone throws an orange peel at you, psychologically that’s damaging, so why is that not a serious issue?

Donald Jenner: Since you posed the question, let me respond as a follow-up.

Min: That’s a hate crime.

Donald Jenner: I agree with you, I’m not disagreeing with you, you’ve identified an act. But if the act is qualitatively different, then presumably the remedy is also qualitatively different. If you’re dealing with something that is very fundamental, I mean, boys will be boys, they will try and establish dominance among themselves, [inaudible] preferences, [inaudible], that’s very different from the kind of anger that [obtained] in the months following 9/11. I wonder if the event might superficially be the same, and would show up in the survey research, but a depth study would presumably pick up that distinction and suggest different remedies that are appropriate to the different approximate causes. I’m interested in remedies.

Min: Many students complained about the role of media, and I think to prevent or moderate Anti-Muslim [inaudible], definitely the media should change it.

Betty Lee Sung: I think it’s very important that we talk also about the remedies. I think some of the things that were brought up, like wearing the special hairdress or turban, what do you do, stop wearing it or how do we deal with it? I think we really should, at this conference anyway, think about the remedy, as Don said. I think, Madhulika had a question?

Madhulika Khandelwal (Brooklyn College): Yes, [Madhulika Khandelwal] from Asian American [inaudible], Queens college. At first I [had another question], but I think it’s very hard to document some of the discrimination practices, it’s very hard to do that kind of thing, and I commend Professor Min for trying to do that. Especially, I think post-September 11^th period has been really some tremendous in terms of the impact on the South Asian community, as such, and even now some of my students say [inaudible] before September 11^th, and [especially intensified] after September 11^th, it continues. But people are not paying that much attention to those kind of discrimination issues, so I think it’s a very important topic to do research on and to bring out [inaudible] identity. But my comment is about the spirit where the South Asian communities are, and [inaudible]. [inaudible] know how far they have changed in the last few decades. But I think at this moment, we are at a point, South Asians, where [inaudible], no longer just children, I mean they are leaders now, they are emerging leaders, and they are presenting all the [inaudible] with a [inaudible] community and [inaudible]. Also, there are at least a substantial number of social services and progressive groups that are coming up that have a different way of presenting to South Asian [inaudible]. Recently, this week, there was a newsweek article on South Asians making it here. You have that, right? I mean, this is a very different picture of South Asian communities than 10 years ago. So I would hope that [inaudible], we talk about the changes that are happening in this population so we get a better sense of where the population is. On one hand there are immigrants who are also [inaudible], within the immigrant population, by class, by gender, and [inaudible]. And you have generational issues, and [inaudible] even mentioning the international and [diaspora] aspect of it, where [inaudible] are really in the limelight to bring out these kind of issues [inaudible]. But I just wanted to mention that I hope the discussion in the subsequent [inaudible] will also take effect.

Betty Lee Sung: Professor Khandelwal, you should have been up here on the panel as well. [She] has written books on the Indians in America, and that’s very true. May I comment on that as well, we were talking about, Professor Min was talking about the discrimination and the attitudes toward the Muslims since 9/11, well I think most of you are recent immigrants, but I was born here, I grew up here, and I experienced a lot of discrimination against the Chinese, all during the period. And I have to say that this is a better period than it was before, a lot of the discriminatory practices have subsided to a large extent, for instance when I grew up the schools were segregated. We couldn’t go to a restaurant, we couldn’t go to a movie, we couldn’t go to the swimming pools, and now we have access to these things. And still, I was very surprised, that, at Queens College, remember his respondents, his interviewees were students or people at Queens College, is that right, Professor Min? These are college educated people and they still have retained some of this discriminatory attitude towards people when two countries are in hostilities. And we have certainly experienced that, and I can certainly say that with the Chinese, the Chinese-American relations have not been very very good over the past 50 years, and each time we would always feel the impact of the mother country, the American relationship with the mother country. That relationship would reflect upon Asian Americans, whatever country you happened to be, and that was certainly true when the Japanese of World War II, the enemy was Japanese-Americans. So those are some of the comments I have. The student in the back there?

[Suleman Din] (Columbia U grad student): [inaudible] In any of your research or in any of your announcements, we just [inaudible] generally about the South Asian community. Much of my [inaudible] includes learning more about, I guess the conflicts that develop within the South Asian community, I mean there are those who believe in accepting [inaudible], identified as Indian or Pakistani or Bangladeshi. There was controversy, I think about two years ago it started, after [inaudible], and people here were sending money to fund [inaudible] in India, and this began, a distribution of [inaudible], saying, again, that this is [communalism] that happens in India and patriots here in America. Can you comment on this, on this issue? This is an open question to anyone in the panel, do you think [these tensions], are they [inaudible], here in the United States, [inaudible], have you seen this [inaudible] attitudes?

Parmatma Saran: From what I have seen, I don’t have any [inaudible] or [inaudible] evidence, but based on my observation and interaction with members of these communities, I don’t think there’s any building tension between us. Occasionally, like you mentioned during [inaudible], there was some word spreading that some [inaudible] groups were sending money and supporting those kinds of practices and all that, but it did not become an issue in the larger context of the community. Most people did not believe, or didn’t think that the stories were true. So [inaudible], comment on this, my sense is that, for example, conflict between India and Pakistan, [inaudible] and what have you, it is out there. I talk to my Pakistani friends and colleagues, they’re pretty much at ease, they don’t see that as an issue. They believe that [inaudible] Mr. Naser was suggesting, if we are here, we should form a [inaudible] to look after our interest as South Asians [inaudible] Pakistan, Bangladesh, any such place. I’m not denying that, there is tension [inaudible], there is an element of that, but I think it’s almost negligible.

Suleman Din: I wanted to sort of get a definition of, who are these people. I’ve been following these people at [inaudible] and at Columbia, and I talked to many people who speak [inaudible] of things that occurred in 1947 or [inaudible], so on and so forth, and I mean, I would need to say that [inaudible], but I’ve talked to people that don’t believe [inaudible], or and vice versa that, [inaudible]. They deny that, they say that [inaudible] is biased, the studies are done by communists or people who are Anti-Hindu, or anti-Muslim, so on and so forth. So there is this segment of the population in Indian and Pakistani [inaudible] South Asian community that sees the violence and denies it in the way that some people deny the Holocaust. So I’m trying to get a sense of, trying to identify, what is causing that segment of the population [inaudible] running into you, and they’re out there.

Parmatma Saran: I should have pointed out that, since some evidence of tension on campuses with [inaudible] Pakistani, Indian, Bangladeshi and those kinds of things, I don’t know where it’s coming from, but it is very unfortunate. On some occasions it happens at Baruch, I was asked to come and talk on a couple of occasions, I did, and then I gave up because these youngsters are really brainwashed and [inaudible] understanding each other. So it’s very [inaudible] that it is not to be seen [inaudible], people who have actually migrated from India and Pakistan, but it is somewhat more evident in the younger generation, people who are not even born in those places. I have not paid much attention to that, so I’m not in much of a position to…

Betty Lee Sung: Could the gentleman identify himself?

[Amir] [inaudible]: Yes my name is [inaudible]. I think this gentleman raised an excellent point. I think there are studies out there, I think they have not been analyzed properly, I don’t think that there’s been a response to them, certainly from the academic community. If you talk to [inaudible] to analyze [inaudible], you will see he has a very well developed idea that there is [funding] of those groups in the Indian-American community in the United States, as well as Canada; there are groups that are [inaudible] this sort of radicalism and militancy in India, [inaudible], developed and becoming more sophisticated. Nothing has been done in response of that in terms of academic analysis or studies, and I think that your point [inaudible], I think the communities are polarizing and we [inaudible].

Betty Lee Sung: It’s also people from the community, okay, go ahead.

[Tanmaya Kumar Nanda]: [inaudible], and if you’re saying [inaudible]. What basis can you see for making [inaudible], [inaudible].

Parmatma Saran: I don’t think I ever suggested that there’s so much polarization. I think there is an element of that, so [inaudible] the plus and minus, there’s more commonality between these communities, and division. If you look at the cultural picture, we will go for establishing solidarity and establishing groups to look after the interest of these groups. I’m not [inaudible], you arrive now, [inaudible] point of view and all that, it has been challenged, [inaudible], person of color, there’s no question about it, but it doesn’t have real evidence at this time, people have accused him of taking a personal view on this matter. I’m not saying that there’s not [tension], forget about between Indian and Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, there’s tension among Indians on regional factors, language factors, caste factors, I’m sure there’s tension within Pakistan. So if you look as an outsider, you seem to think it’s a single group, Indians or Pakistanis, but that’s not the case, it’s very [inaudible], there’s always a potential source of conflict, but if you look at the larger picture, [inaudible] optimistic about it, and I’m suggesting that there is room for coming together and seeking cooperation between these groups.

Betty Lee Sung: To build on that topic, I was thinking, we have two editors here, and they are editors of their ethnic papers. I was wondering, how much of that tension and hostility between the mother countries has subsided in this country. In other words, when you come to the United States, some of that has to be [inaudible] has moderated, between the Chinese and Japanese, and Koreans, of course we’re old time enemies, but when you come to this country, you always think of yourself as Asian American, you have a larger identity. How has that been with the Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Indians?

[Minhaj Qidwai]: We come over here with baggage.

Betty Lee Sung: You get rid of the baggage?

[Minhaj Qidwai]: We come over here as a baggage.

Betty Lee Sung: And it’s still there? And there’s so much hostility and separation, you don’t cooperate?

[Minhaj Qidwai]: The thing is that problem persists, in spite of that, that we are having these kinds of crooked matters. In fact, for the whole night I was watching the crooked matters, [inaudible], that was the interest, but unfortunately there is an element, a political element in both countries that tries to exploit this situation. Majority of the people, mostly from India and Pakistan, they want things to be history, they want to be a part of history, but unfortunately the things are too persisting and as a gentleman asked the question about [inaudible] and the extremist elements, these extremist elements are [enduring], and they will continue. We cannot ignore the extremist elements throughout the world. There are certain elements in our [faith], there are certain elements in Catholic, there are certain elements in [inaudible]. So these extremist elements continue, we cannot get rid of these people who are extremists. We have to find our own way out to deal with this situation and come out and fight with those people. As educated people, we have to enforce on those people who are making these kind of [inaudible] in our countries, so I would suggest that it is our goal, it is our responsibility to make sure that these kind of things do not happen in [inaudible] and our method should be that we are the people who are going to bring a change to society.

Betty Lee Sung: How about Mr. Naser. Want to respond to that?

Moinuddin Naser: And truly, we have to look for unity and diversity. It will be a lot of communities out there that despite a lot of diversity, [inaudible], Pakistan and India are two nuclear powers and [inaudible], [inaudible]. There are a lot of things to do to that.
Bangladesh [inaudible], and the fact that we also, there are a lot of differences on opinions on different issues. But still, it is [inaudible] cooperation, and there [inaudible], had there not been any [inaudible] these countries [inaudible]. But sitting in America, and we are the people from South Asia, we are sitting together [inaudible] our countries, how to sit together, how to discuss the things, and the [inaudible] is everywhere, so we have to be very careful, we have to avoid extremism, but [inaudible] extremists, we cannot just ignore that truth, we cannot just ignore that [inaudible], we cannot just ignore that [inaudible].

Betty Lee Sung: Dawn, you have a question?

Dawn An (Queens College): I have a question for Professor Min, because I’m also from Queens College and I know that [inaudible].

Betty Lee Sung: Go on, speak up because people in the back can’t hear you. Stand up and face the audience.

Dawn An: [inaudible] student association of Queens College, [inaudible] there’s also the question, the Catholics, or Protestants, [inaudible] Jewish. They share space on the second floor for religious communities. And [inaudible] expense, so I’ve become familiar with some of the material, and they have a big celebration, the [inaudible] celebration that’s coming up, and now people [inaudible] can also come to these events, so [inaudible] where this was kind of a bias or discrimination within the community, [inaudible] the Christian community, the Muslim community, [inaudible] went into both communities and talked about religious differences.

Betty Lee Sung: Well, Dawn, there is your remedy. I think that being at a research institute, being an active academic institution; we know some of these facts exist. Now, the problem is, to come up with remedies and how to implement them, and I hope that today we can have some discussion on that. How about Professor Min, what would be some of the remedies that you would think of to, say, deal with this hostility toward Muslims at the moment?

Pyong Gap Min: Right now, I cannot really talk about that, and I think [inaudible] what [inaudible] issue. Now, responding to the gentleman’s question, I am [inaudible], my main goal is not to show, really, the [inaudible], but how [inaudible] identity. I agree to show the [inaudible] experience at this convention, [inaudible] prejudice, we need a bigger study, a survey study, but this is, the focus is identity. [inaudible] what we found is interesting, it’s very descriptive, [inaudible] generalizing.

Donald Jenner: [inaudible] I’m going to ask a question back. You are probably familiar with the work of the quantitative sociologist [Gerald Zaltman] of [Harvard] Business School. He has recently published; his focus of course is the meticulous solution of business, marketing problems, understanding customers, and what have you. But if you look at much of what he’s saying, it seems to me it has implications for developing the kind of study that you’re doing. Rather than looking at merely survey data, however good it may be, he’s using, he’s finding that depth studies provides some insights into rather, more, let me say, prior [inaudible], if you wish. That is to say, [inaudible] in some cases, [inaudible] physiology [inaudible], they are telling us about the very structures of the human brain [inaudible] well beyond what the socio-biology [inaudible] was doing 20 years ago. It seems to me that if you begin to take that kind of depth study, you’re going to get a much clearer picture as to how these identity shifts change, how these identities become redefined in the course of these very different kinds of events, which less selective, less deep research techniques are going to miss. I think that’s a problem, I think that’s going to be a recurring problem, because to revise the kind of skewing that Dr. Saran, for example, suggested exists with this [inaudible], you can’t do superficial research anymore, it won’t work. You need the depth studies.

Betty Lee Sung: Well, I think we’ll have one last question. [Ellen], did you have your hand up? Okay, yes?

Sambhavi Lakshminarayanan: I had a question that was partly answered by a student, and the question was that, what does Queens College do, and nothing particularly about Queens College because we have to [inaudible], and we mentioned [inaudible] which are two kind of celebratory events.

Dawn An: [inaudible]

Sambhavi Lakshminarayanan: Did they have any events that specifically [address] these incidents of violence or hostility toward Muslim students?

Betty Lee Sung: well I think we should all leave our discomforts with the thought, how can we resolve some of these tensions and some of these problems? And with that, we want to thank all our speakers today on the panel and to the audience for coming here on this snowy day. Thank you very much. I think lunch is going to be served, is that right, lunch will be served, and stay with us because we will have more sessions on this [inaudible].